May 4, 2008

I gave older women a chance

And I will run back into the familiar, bear-hugging arms of teenagers and college students. Last night I decided to do break my routine and go to a 21+ nightclub, supposedly one of the most "young and hip" around, but where the average age was more like 28 - 30. The experience has left no doubt in my mind about who I should pursue, and below are seven highlights of the difference between younger and older females, leaving aside ones that should already be obvious.

I'm clearly only comparing the averages of females who go out to nightclubs, and this introduces bias into the older women I meet: they are not only not taken, but likely don't intend to be taken for awhile or ever. The music and crowd is the same though: hip-hop and R&B music, mostly White people from the Mountain Time Zone. However, what follows below is the same for girls who don't go clubbing -- if you're a socially conservative guy who hates bars and nightclubs, would you rather date the Audrey Rouget character from Metropolitan or who she will tend to become at age 30?

I also intend for this comparison to also serve as a "how to get your groove back" guide for older women. I don't have concrete suggestions -- that's for a future post -- but at least it shows which areas to attend to. Hey, some day I'll be 55 and will have to hit on 27 year-olds, so isn't it in my own best interest to devise anti-aging strategies for them?

1) Energy level



Younger girls move their bodies much more wildly when dancing, a telltale sign of being nervous and lacking voluntary control over their behavior. They are already pumped up before they see you, and by dancing with them, you serve as a lightning rod that absorbs their overflow of anxiety. As lovely as these girls are, they are terribly insecure about their looks and their appeal to boys, so your efforts to keep them from dancing alone are felt much more deeply.

With older women, Neuroticism has declined from adolescent levels, and you must invest much more effort into getting them worked up to a given level. Being more stable than volatile, they do not feel the same need for a partner to unload their excess energy onto. As a result, it is very difficult to feel like you're lost in the moment with them.

2) Initiation of physical contact

Younger girls may do some pretty wild things when they dance with you, but before, during, and after the dance, they are more coy when it comes to touching your arm, playfully elbowing you, and so on. Perhaps this is due to whatever causes call girls and adult film stars to agree to the most depraved things involving the sexual parts of their bodies, but to refuse caressing the face, kissing the lips, using the tongue when kissing, and so on. When she grinds her ass on a guy's crotch, she's just signaling that he's sufficiently attractive and cocky to give her a quick physical fix -- whereas stroking his arm and leaning in cheek-to-cheek while talking are reserved for the boys she wants to keep.

The older women who approached me, by contrast, were very physically aggressive: sitting next to me so that our thighs touched right away, stroking my tie, motioning for handshakes or high-fives for no reason, nudging me after they delivered a witty banter line, or giving me a lapdance without saying hello or even making eye-contact first. The only similar experience I've had is going to a gay club in Barcelona. They must realize that coyness works only for those whose attention is worthy enough that, when denied to the guy for a moment, would provoke him to invest more in her. This option is rapidly drying up for them, so they figure they might as well take a more direct route.

3) Flexibility



Guys don't have to be in top physical condition to do well in a dance club, since they don't have to show off so much (breakdancing requires flexibility, but this only entertains girls, rather than win them over). Girls, though, must be flexible enough to move their body in a hypnotizing way, and age is incredibly unforgiving here: hypermobility (or the tendency toward being "double-jointed") peaks at about age 12 and declines starting in the mid-late teens, which may be why gymnasts are so young. When I visit the local teen danceclub, I see at least five girls who do the splits while dancing -- as in, they get into that position and effortlessly bounce up and down like that about four times.

Older women would risk injury if they tried that; most are still not limber enough to coordinate their spine in a serpentine way. Take-home lesson: never stop your physical conditioning, and make sure you dance regularly. This is one reason why dancers age so much better than other women.

4) Scent

Younger girls must produce more of some chemical signal involved in mate attraction. You might not notice this, but I have a very sensitive palate and sense of smell. I first noticed this scent in my 11th grade math class, and I had forgotten it until I began tutoring high schoolers. It is produced either in the vagina or sweat glands, and I'm pretty sure it's produced only when they are in the high-risk of pregnancy phase of their menstrual cycle. * It's hard to describe since I'm not one of those perfume testers or gourmands who has a vast store of comparisons to draw on, but it is unmistakable. When you put 50 to 300 girls aged 16 to 18 in a single room with just enough ventilation to carry chemical signals around, it is impossible not to be struck by it immediately upon entering. It is one of the most powerful motivators: you feel like a hunting dog tracking a chemical gradient.

I did not smell this at all in the 21+ club. At first I thought it was because younger girls are more likely to wear shorts, but older women are more likely to wear skirts, which would just as easily release the chemical into the air. I didn't notice a huge difference in wearing jeans or pants. I doubt the smoke in the 21+ club had anything to do with it either: I notice the smell at a different 18+ club where smoking is allowed, and I never notice it when I'm around females my own age.

5) Silliness



This may be related to energy level, since over-the-top goofiness is also a sign of nervousness about what others think about you. Because females were not designed to think or behave in a serious way until the age when they can no longer rely on their looks to successfully navigate the social world, it was no surprise that I didn't observe any silliness in the 21+ club. And while it's not very much on display in the 18+ clubs, where girls try to act a bit more badass than they normally do, it's still there -- especially at 80s night.

6) Lust



This is distinct from energy level, which is about how little or how much input she needs to reach a certain level of interaction. By "lust" I mean how she behaves once she does get turned on. As I've pointed out recently, younger girls are hornier than older women. In the danceclub context, it means that the younger girl will straddle and gyrate over one of your thighs to stimulate herself. In a more subdued context, it means she has more sexual tension building up, and even if she doesn't try to release it with you, she will be more likely to fall for you since you make her feel that way.

7) Asking me what I do

Goddamn, we're in a nightclub -- what could it possibly matter what I do? That matters if you're looking for a long-term partner, one who you hope will support your living-above-your-means lifestyle or who will raise a family with you. Do you really think you're going to find that guy in a nightclub? We're there to forget the humdrum part of our lives, cut loose, and mingle in the dark with strangers. Asking guys what they do kills the fun vibe. No younger girl has ever asked me anything like this -- at most, where do I go to school (and there are no de facto Ivies out here, so it's not a roundabout way of asking how much money I or my parents have).

Well, now no one can accuse me of not giving older women a fair shot at winning me over, and now I'm more convinced than ever that pursuing girls who are at most 22 is the right thing to do. While I've come home from the 18+ clubs a bit annoyed that I didn't get a kiss from a girl when all the signs were there, or at other aspects of younger girls' more flakey behavior, I've never come home almost depressed by the near total lack of selection, as well as by the whole charade of it all -- here you have a crowd of people who are basically devoid of passion, carrying on as though they thought they could be mistaken for teenagers. Get real. It was like touring the terminally ill wing of a large nursing home -- these people should be with families, or perhaps in small-scale care facilities, where they can get better attention, or they should just pull their own plug. Not being a masochist, I will never go back to clubs catering to people in their late 20s and over.

* Believe it or not, the prestigious journal Science published a study showing that vaginal secretions from the high-risk phase of the cycle were judged as smelling better than those from the low-risk phases.

28 comments:

  1. Gannon7:56 PM

    When people asl me why I have a 17 year old gf, I tell them that I love her, but the real answer is because I can. Iim working at my thesis in my university, so I have contact with coed girls. I also work part time at an office where the owmen are around thirty. Actually, it's depressing: the sexual attractiveness of women around 30 is very low, with a few exceptions.

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  2. would you rather date the Audrey Rouget character from Metropolitan or who she will tend to become at age 30?

    Isn't what made this character attractive was that in many ways she seemed so much older than her years? I don't think much of your list decribes her at all - she was a serious person, behaved rather modestly,
    made comments & behaved in a way that many would think "killed the fun vibe" & seemed to date with serious intentions. Quite frankly, what was appealing about her was that while she was physically young, she had personality characteristics that usually only tend to come with age.

    BTW, not to kill the fun vibe, but are you ever planning on doing the marriage & kids thing? You really seem to find women over 25 off-putting - do you think you could handle staying with your wife as she ages?

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  3. Have you tried Latin clubs? I go fairly often and despite the weighting towards 28-30 women, I've found that a lot of what you describe in terms of women's physicality, high octane energy, charm, the lightheartedness, etc. is present. It may be due to the culture that encourages men and women to start dancing shortly after learning to walk and not stop until they're nearly in the grave.

    They have much less of a meat-market singles vibe too - it's really easy to meet women there, but it's also commonplace for couples and groups of friends to attend just for the dancing.

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  4. A 17 year-old Argentine girlfriend -- fortune has been very good to you!

    Quite frankly, what was appealing about her was that while she was physically young, she had personality characteristics that usually only tend to come with age.

    It's true that the facets of Agreeableness increase with age -- modesty, tender-mindedness, altruism, empathy, etc.

    But the reverse is true for facets of Neuroticism. I can't speak for every guy who's ever had a crush on an Audrey Rouget, but most of the appeal -- at least the part that hooks you at the start -- is her being delicate, fragile, self-conscious, and emotionally vulnerable. These trigger our protector instincts.

    I wouldn't say she had a buzzkill vibe at all: she instinctively began playful arguments, got all tingly inside when she first saw Tom, acted coy around him, and so on. She wasn't a party girl, but she was not stable either -- she had her own type of youthful volatility ("Well if Lionel Trilling thought that, he's an idiot!").

    You really seem to find women over 25 off-putting - do you think you could handle staying with your wife as she ages?

    I plan to marry in my late 30s, ideally to a girl who's under 24 (not too tough to do if you have certain qualities, and you know what to look for). If I really do fall for someone before then, I'll get married sooner of course.

    Let's say I'm 39 and she's 18. When she turns 28, I'll be 49 and likely won't be in a position to stray with a noticeably younger girl than she.

    Have you tried Latin clubs?

    I haven't, for several reasons:

    1) It takes awhile to learn how to dance formally, at least enough to get noticed in such a club. If you've been doing it for awhile, that's cool, but I'm not going to start learning at 27.

    2) I don't think we have many of them here in the Mountain Time Zone since the Hispanics are Mexican and therefore don't appreciate Caribbean music and cannot dance. With no critical mass of Hispanics to make the club seem authentic and cool, local Whites will never get into it either.

    3) They seem to emphasize dancing too much, making it difficult to carry on a conversation.

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  5. Anonymous4:02 PM

    The younger girls asked you about where you go to school and not about what you do because all of them are probably still in school.

    The older women are probably all working and they assumed that you were also working and so asked you what you do.

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  6. I plan to marry in my late 30s, ideally to a girl who's under 24 ...
    Let's say I'm 39 and she's 18. When she turns 28, I'll be 49 and likely won't be in a position to stray with a noticeably younger girl than she.


    Aren't you forgetting something? She might very well be in a position to stray with a noticeably younger man than you!

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  7. No, I've thought of that too. I won't be cuckolded, so I'll make sure that the pre-nup says paternity test for any kid she has.

    As for her getting with some other guy, which doesn't result in pregnancy, you try to minimize that risk, but it never reaches zero. Her character matters more than her age, though: I'll make sure to pick someone who is high in Agreeableness and average or high in Conscientiousness. It will be fun to see how our kids turn out.

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  8. Gannon6:53 AM

    Getting a woman 10 or 12 years younger is realistic, and maybe even optimal. However, most women don't really like men who are more than 15 years older than them. If you cross the 15 years age gap, she will startb seeing youb as a father. Also, courting a woman who is more than 15 years older than you is very difficult and probably requires fame and money. Really, 15years is the limit, and your goal should be 8-12 years younger.

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  9. Let's say I'm 39 and she's 18.

    I hope that's a joke, cause otherwise, dude, you're in fantasyland.

    First, if you stay in shape etc., I don't doubt you could have a fling with an 18 year old at that age, but get real, you're not going to find someone that age to marry you.

    Second, a ten year difference is very workable, but more is iffy, especially when dealing with someone in their early 20s. Remember that right now you're in your twenties at he peak of your energy. Its not going to last.

    34-24 is much more realistic. Once you pass 30 start looking around for someone who is 21-22. Trust me on this.

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  10. roissy2:36 PM

    I plan to marry in my late 30s, ideally to a girl who's under 24 (not too tough to do if you have certain qualities, and you know what to look for).

    this is an excellent game plan, and one i plan to follow if i ever let my guard down enough (that is, get seduced by an amazing woman) to consent to marriage.

    but the more i get around, the more i come to the conclusion that DC women are simply unmarriageable. i may have to move to a smaller town to find an acceptable bride.

    When she turns 28, I'll be 49 and likely won't be in a position to stray with a noticeably younger girl than she.

    of course, the greater the age difference, the higher likelihood she'll stray. this risk can be ameliorated with proper application of game principles.

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  11. roissy2:44 PM

    gannon:
    Also, courting a woman who is more than 15 years [younger] than you is very difficult and probably requires fame and money.

    it's not as difficult as many men lazily accept as fact. stay in shape, dress trendily, be culturally aware, don't go bald or if you do shave your head, act young, have energy, and most importantly know game inside and out.
    i personally am currently dating a girl who is over 10 years younger than me and while the long term prognosis with her is shakier than it would be with a woman closer to my age, the short term (going on 2 months now) has been a blast. and my last 8 flings have all been 9-18 years younger.

    Really, 15years is the limit, and your goal should be 8-12 years younger.

    for the majority of men, i agree with this. but you don't have to resign yourself to being part of the majority. i don't.

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  12. Gannon6:59 PM

    @Roissy:
    I'm no coward and definitively don't act like an average guy or adhere to comformity, otherwise I wouldn't have had a girl in her middteens as a gf when I was 23. Having sex in your forties with twentysomething women is absolutely doable. However, there is a huge difference between casual sex and a stable relationship. 15 years is absoultely doable by the way, 40 and 25 or 18 and 32 will work great. But once you start crossing the 15 age barrier, women will start seeing you as a fatherfigure. The age difference will start to show and create problems. If you are serious about starting a family and have a longterm relationship with a woman which doesn't end in divorce, I wouldn't cross the 15 years age barrier.

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  13. If all else fails, I'll look up the girls on the Brazil Cupid website, find an 18 y.o. who's accepting of guys in their late 30s, and there we go. Or see if there's a place like Colombia where middle-class people are desperate to flee the war zone their country has become.

    You have to do some basic research to find out where girls will be most favorable to dating you. Girls are noticeably above the global average in preferred age difference in Greece, Iran, Colombia, Bulgaria, and some other disease-wracked places. Noticeably below the global average are the US, French Canada, Finland, UK, and other less disease-wracked places.

    You also have to find girls who come from a group with more pronounced sex differences -- they expect men and women to be very different, and age is part of that (blossoming girl and mature man). For more female-typical personality traits, Brazil is near the top in sex differences.

    Also look for girls who are temper their impulse toward Romeo & Juliet love with a more realistic "what is he going to do for me?" mindset. Not just money, though that's part. Are you smart, good-looking, and ambitious? Well, she'll know that you're going to pass that on to her kids.

    So, I would probably not end up with a really girly girl, since they don't think pragmatically at all, but even the more realist-minded 18 y.o.s are pretty girly inside.

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  14. Don't forget that with the low birthrates in the Western world there will be fewer young girls around when you're 39 than there were when your grandfather was 39.

    Fuck! it's depressing to live during a civilizational decline.

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  15. roissy8:35 PM

    Girls are noticeably above the global average in preferred age difference in Greece, Iran, Colombia, Bulgaria, and some other disease-wracked places.

    just to be clear, by above the global average do you mean women from these parts prefer men who are older or younger in preferred age relative to themselves? and if you mean they're OK with older men why would that be the case with women living in geographic regions where disease was more prevalent?

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  16. I don't know what the disease angle is, but it shows up everywhere. It correlates with polygyny, emphasis on good looks, all kinds of stuff.

    In every culture surveyed, females want older husbands, and males want younger wives. For the entire world, females prefer a husband who is 3.42 years older, males a wife who is 2.66 years younger (hmmm, seems like girls are more OK with age diffs than guys are!).

    But in Bulgaria, say, females on average prefer a guy who is 4.18 years older. Their SD is 2.61, so that means a 3-sigma girl will want a guy who is about 15 years older than she is.

    Such girls are about 1 out of 1000, and there are roughly 3.5 million non-Gypsy Bulgarian females, let's say a third of whom are in a desirable age range. That gives you a little over 1000 girls who'd prefer a guy 15 years older.

    If it were 20 years older, it'd be less obviously, but you still might have 100 or so girls who'd be up for it.

    I'm using Bulgaria as an example because I know you're trying to reconnect with your family's Slavic roots pretty soon -- you dog -- but the numbers are even more favorable in Brazil. The simple reason? There are about 25 times as many people there.

    Just remember that when you search for your wife: you're more likely to find a 1 in a million girl in a country of 200 million than 7 million.

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  17. Gannon5:26 AM

    Look guys. If you go to a Mail Order Bride Side of Argentinian women, they will tell you things like that Argentinian women want guys who are 20, 25 or even 30 years older than them. They may take the deal, but it probably won't last. On personal experience I can say that if you are attractive to them, 10 years age difference (guy being older) is no problem at all, and the happiest marriages I have seen the man is 8-12 years older. Some women will also put up with men 15 years older. Gettting a wife who is 20 years younger and who will love you in thelong run is unrealistic.
    By the way, Greece teen girls are famous in Europe for sleeping with older guys. 13-14 year old greece teen girls like to sleep with European University students who are tourists. When I was in Greece I remember seeing Greece girls as young as twelve with European guys as old as 25.

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  18. jaakkeli7:20 AM

    No, I've thought of that too. I won't be cuckolded, so I'll make sure that the pre-nup says paternity test for any kid she has.
    ...
    It will be fun to see how our kids turn out.

    So, you do want to see how your kids turn out?

    Factor in the risk of divorce & the courts favouring women. With foreign women from poor countries, factor in the risk of foreign spouses disappearing back to their home countries once you're sucked dry and the likelihood that the local authorities over there will have zero interest in helping you.

    To protect yourself from any of this, you'd have to be wealthy and powerful or just one hell of a catch.

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  19. If it turns out that 15 years is the best I can do, then I'll marry a 20 year-old when I'm 35 -- that's still pretty sweet.

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  20. Interesting thoughts, and they definitely made me think a bit.

    I am a 29 year old woman who loves to dance and always has. My reason for going out is to dance and spend time with friends. A few of my friends are the same way—dancers.

    We go out and still have all the energy and flexibility we had when we were 20, which is why we probably get hit on by much younger guys all the time when dancing…and these guys always think we are at least 5 years younger than we are…maybe the carefree dancing is part of it.

    But in terms of the ass bounce that you have that girl in the video doing a few times…that isn’t really “dancing”…that is stripper ass bouncing, something most women in the their late 20s CAN do but choose not to.

    It is very whorish looking and not very classy. I can dance sexily with a lot of movement without doing the ass bounce and that’s it.

    And you will never catch a girl on the East Coast doing the leg split in a club. She would be mocked. Its just not considered cool or sexy here…in any age bracket.

    Besides that, I agree with you.

    Have fun with your high school girls…you seem to really like them and its nice to find something you like.

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  21. But I'm not going to a dance club to marvel at dancing virtuosity -- I go to ballet performances for that. The ass bounce may not be classy, but a little dash of trash is nice.

    The girls who do the splits are all 16 - 18, so unless you go to dance clubs where this is the primary age group, you wouldn't see it. I grew up in Maryland, and the Black girls and wannabe-Black girls would do this without a doubt. Again, though, I only see about 5 girls do this, so it's not common either.

    It's hard *not* to have fun around high school and college girls!

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  22. Anonymous3:21 PM

    Have you considered marrying an asian woman? Most likely Korean-Japanese? The would seem to suit your desire for pedomorphism, as they fare better with age than whites. And are usually just as wild once you get to know them.

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  23. I would never marry or date an East Asian. First, while I prefer a youthful personality and energy, I don't have a preference for pedomorphism, other than for a babyface (large eyes, full lips, delicate jawline, soft bone structure). I like an hourglass figure and a large, firm butt.

    I've seen exactly one East Asian who had all these traits -- I almost never do a double-take when I see someone good-looking, but she was so unusual that I had to. She was Japanese, and they are better looking than the other East Asians.

    Halfies are fine, though, and it's common knowledge that someone who's exactly 1/4 East Asian is bound to melt hearts. Filipinas are also nice, but they are from Oceania.

    East Asians also have too flat of a face for my tastes. I like high-relief faces, from the elegantly elongated noses of South Asia and the Middle East to the adorable overbites of the Spanish.

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  24. I agree with Kassyk. There is nothing appealing about the butt-shaking of the girls in your videos. It's skanky and does nothing for me.

    I was a teenager during the 80s and I don't remember teenage girls, even the most exhubrant ones, dancing like that. A negroization of a segment of youth culture took place during the early 90s, and that's what you see in the videos.

    She was Japanese, and they are better looking than the other East Asians.

    Having lived in Korea for a year (military) and being somewhat acquainted with the Japanese, I'd say that in terms of the average baseline, Korean women are the best looking of the East Asians. But the best looking individual East Asians are Japanese.

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  25. Gannon7:02 AM

    Man, I definitively like the first video. How that teen moves her ass does get my attention. The music is also cool.
    I think Kassy K makes a lot of interesting points. She does look younger for her age, and she also dances, so that seems to confirm you theory that women who dance regularly age better by keeping fit. She also points out that she gets approached by younger guys, which does not surprise me since she is very attractive and younger guys look for casual sex with older women all the time. It's also very interesting how she tries to undermine the younger competion by calling them vulgar and whorish, something also very common about women. In order to age gracefully and dignified, a woman really has to get married at some point.

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  26. It's also very interesting how she tries to undermine the younger competion by calling them vulgar and whorish, something also very common about women.

    Females are their own worst enemies. There is almost no conflict between males and females per se. Most conflict is between males and males, or females and females.

    That's why feminism was only a fad -- pretending that all females are sisters oppressed by the man is too silly to believe for very long. Deep down, every sane female knows that the majority of her oppressors are other females, like the ones who call her a slut for wearing short shorts and shaking her ass.

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  27. www.kassyk.wordpress.com5:21 PM

    Gannon--While I appreciate the nice things you said...I do not consider women that much younger than me "competition" and if I did that would be pretty pathetic of me....

    I am in a relationship with someone I love and not "searching" for a man. I have one.

    So I am not dating or having casual sex.

    And Agnostic--I love women...I am a total girls girl and I am probably one of the least "jealous" girls I know of.

    I appreciate female beauty and understand your appreciation of younger women. 100%.

    I am not sure how me calling the way that girl dances vulgar is being jealous.

    AND I did not call her a slut--I said the dancing looks whorish and not classy. I would never call someone a slut for how they dance...but the dancing sure is slutty looking.

    I think like PA said...its a generational thing...we just don't find the appeal in it.

    That being said...I appreciate the post...like I said before, you did make some really interesting and spot on points.
    :)

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  28. Maybe it's because I just watched The Silence of the Lambs, but your entire post can be summarized as "I can smell your c*nt". LOL

    I don't think most women would respond well to a guy demanding a paternity test as a prerequisite for marriage....

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