June 1, 2012

Queers more likely to be serial killers, and a thought on gay adoption

Something that young people today may be unaware of is just how new the pro-homo movement is. Nobody took notice of the Stonewall Riots in 1969, or even featured gays on the ubiquitous "very special episodes" of 1980s TV shows, where they devoted an episode to some social problem like runaways, drug use, or teen pregnancy. As recently as 1991, the #5 movie at the box office featured a villain who was a transsexual serial killer.

Just two years after The Silence of the Lambs, the tide had already turned, with the #9 movie, Philadelphia, starring a gay martyr. At that early point, though, they couldn't totally lie to the public and expect them to buy it, so the main character does admit that, yeah, I guess I got AIDS from anonymous sex with some dude in a porno theater -- oh spare me, like you homophobic bigots never have?

By now fewer and fewer of the younger generations remember how psychologically warped gays are, so that they can be spoon-fed far more ridiculous propaganda. E.g., that they fall in love rather than impulsively seek out hook-ups only. Gays are socially-emotionally stunted at around age 8 or 9, so they are incapable of falling in love as adolescents and other grown-ups do.

But at least we have historical records and numbers to keep the awareness intact, however hostile the public becomes to it.

Wikipedia has a category called "American serial killers" that contains 224 entries (mostly for single individuals, some for teams). Searching further for those that have "LGBT" in the text, 15 pop up, and LGBT always refers to the killer, not necessarily the victims.

That means queers (almost all men) make up about 6.7% of those American serial killers notable enough to have a Wikipedia page. Since they make up 1-3% of the overall population, that makes them over-represented among serial killers by 2 to 7 times. This is an under-estimate, since some of the serial killers' identities and sexual orientations are not known. Should any of the unknown killers turn out to be homo, that'll bump the estimate up a bit more.

I didn't think to look up these numbers until I read Bringing Adam Home, which puts together all the evidence in the murder of Adam Walsh, son of the host of America's Most Wanted, who began his crusade in large part because of the bungling of the investigation into his own son's murder. Adam was just one of dozens of victims slain by serial killer and faggot Ottis Toole, who even used to dress in drag, shave his legs, and wear a wig when he hustled other faggots. Portraits like that really bring out how homosexuality is typically just the tip of the iceberg of profound psychological disease.

As far as he let others know, he kidnapped Adam Walsh so that he could bring him up as his own son, and only killed him after he began crying persistently for his mother. Toole must have realized that Adam already had a loving bond with his parents, and that this would forever spoil his plans to be accepted by the boy as his father.

I was reminded of the creepy gay type who goes through with adoption. It's not out of altruism to protect an unwanted child, as gays show no general interest in the downtrodden. Nor is it to find an outlet for one's nurturing instincts, as narcissists lack that instinct. Of course, there's the status points to score from moral preening. But primarily it is to soothe his own neuroses. After receiving the basic gratitude and attention that kids give their parents, he gets to exult that, "for once in my life somebody loves me, they really love me!" Unlike a kidnapping victim, though, the adopted child won't howl out for mommy and ruin the illusion.

To our increasingly clueless population, gays want to adopt for the same reasons that normal people do, so what could go wrong? But if they're more likely to adopt for narcissistic reasons, they're more likely to neglect, mistreat, or just plain act like an asshole to the kid. Thin-skinned and stinging at the slightest sign of coolness or rejection, he'll make the ungrateful little shit pay for making him feel unwanted. No normal father would ever get angry about "and here I thought you loved me!"

Ottis Toole may be an extreme case, but extremes are illuminating of the average. Blacks can dunk a basketball easier than Chinese, even if most aren't anywhere near that tall. Still, if one is higher on average, it will be over-represented at the extremes.

47 comments:

  1. Lawful Neutral6/1/12, 4:00 AM

    The day will come when this post is read in a courtroom as evidence against you.

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  2. Ah, the Old Guard! Nice to meet you.

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  3. When I read about hetero killers, and if their sexual proclivities are mentioned, I fully expect to hear they practiced it anally; I've been reading books and what not about them off and on since age 17.

    Which comes first? The psychosis that makes one want to do that or the germs one gets from experimentation, rape, etc.? And that's before we even get to the drugs...

    Just one I've been remembering because of the initial link to this case (probably made up by this cannibal himself and false): Paul Bernardo, Scarborough Rapist, and husband of Karla Homolka who became his partner in rapes and murders:

    (Wikipedia)
    Bernardo graduated from Sir Wilfrid Laurier Collegiate Institute, opting to work for Amway, whose sales culture had a deep effect on him. "He bought the books and tapes of famous motivational get-rich-and-famous experts."[6] Bernardo and his friends practiced their techniques on young women they met in bars, and were fairly successful.[5] By the time Bernardo attended University of Toronto Scarborough, he had developed dark sexual fantasies, enjoyed humiliating women in public and beating up the women he dated.[5]

    He frequently talked about his sex life to Smirnis and liked analingus, rough sex and anal sex.[2]

    ---------------

    Anyway, Agnostic, keep doing what you're doing. You are the sole person telling the truth, any truth, about homosexuals.

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  4. Regarding gay personality traits, I think the evidence seems mixed:

    http://genepi.qimr.edu.au/contents/p/staff/Zietsch_ArchSexBehav.pdf

    "Recent evidence indicates that homosexuals and bisexuals are, on average, at greater risk for psychiatric problems than heterosexuals.

    ...

    nonheterosexual men and women scor(ed) significantly higher on Neuroticism and Psychoticism than their heterosexual counterparts, suggesting an overall elevation of psychiatric risk in nonheterosexuals."


    http://inductivist.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/gay-men-and-big-5.html

    "Compared to straight men, gays are more agreeable and open to experience. Lesbians are next..."

    http://www.mendeley.com/research/aggression-empathy-and-sexual-orientation-in-males/

    "Homosexual males reported significantly lower levels of physical aggression and higher levels of empathy but report similar levels of indirect aggression, and other forms of direct aggression, to heterosexual males."

    ...

    It's pretty clear gay men have more paraphilias than straight men though. Weird sexual killing stuff seems like no exception to this rule.

    ....

    Although I find your thoughts on rising-crime, falling-crime interesting, I do think your posts on gays and Jews and other outgroups often seem to lack direct data.

    I mean, what do you think of things like http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/27/same-sex-couples-are-just_n_661090.html - "University of Virginia researchers Rachel Farr and Charlotte Patterson and George Washington University researcher Stephen Forssell studied children adopted at birth by 50 heterosexual couples and 56 homosexual couples and drew information on the preschoolers from a variety of adults. They discovered that homosexual families were just as adjusted as families with heterosexual parents."

    Hopelessly contaminated or what? Wouldn't that kind of direct data be a better way to test whether gays have more "Mommy Dearest" type personalities on average?

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  5. The impression I get from Inductivist is that homosexuals aren't that much weirder than straights, at least based on survey data. Bisexuals are the weird ones.

    http://inductivist.blogspot.ca/search?q=bisexual

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  6. Gays are more prone to become serial killers, but this doesn't mean that gays are doomed to be serial killers.

    Acceptance of homosexuality makes sense to me. You get free labor, with less competition for women.

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  7. "The impression I get from Inductivist is that homosexuals aren't that much weirder than straights, at least based on survey data. Bisexuals are the weird ones."

    I think its more that, since "bisexuality" doesn't really exist, those who claim to be so are lying attention whores.

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  8. "As recently as 1991, the #5 movie at the box office featured a villain who was a transsexual serial killer."

    Actually, it is explicitly said in the movie and novel that the serial killer "wasn't a real transsexual"(real transsexuals rarely committing violence).

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  9. "Anyway, Agnostic, keep doing what you're doing. You are the sole person telling the truth, any truth, about homosexuals."

    who's truth? Isn't it possible, just possible, that supporters of gay acceptance are acting out of self-interest, and not delusion?

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  10. Agnostic said, " Gays are socially-emotionally stunted at around age 8 or 9, so they are incapable of falling in love as adolescents and other grown-ups do."

    They certainly are, on average, promiscuous, but that makes sense since gay or not, they're still male, have brains that are wired to think often about sex, and to think often about sex with a variety of partners.

    Not being constrained by relationships with us women, who don't have brains wired that way, they can play around more than a straight guy, have less to lose than a straight guy.

    However, Ag, I am wondering why you say gays are emotionally stunted around 8 or 9. Yes, there are studies that show gays are more prone to anxiety than straight males, and researchers have tried to control for the effects of societal attitudes toward them and have still found them more anxious or neurotic than their straight counterparts, more similar to straigh women in those areas. Studies about whether they actually suffer from what is termed "mental illness" more than their straight counterparts, however, don't seem to suggest they do, although those studies are ongoing.

    They do, some of them, fall in love. Lots of heteros don't. Lots of straight people never really fall in love, yet marry for companionship, for societal acceptance, or marry because they are tired of being single, tired of chasing tail (and getting less return year after year on their investment of time), and mostly to start a family.

    I kind of the last person to find myself sticking up for gays, but I do wonder where you get the idea they are emotionally stunted? If you've a study on that, I'd like to see it.

    IIRC, you, like a lot of us, give credence to Cochran and Ewald germ theory of homosex. Do you think the pathogen stunts emotional development or do you think the emotional development is impeded by the biological damage the pathogen does?

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  11. "who's truth?"

    The truth.

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  12. "Do you think the pathogen stunts emotional development or do you think the emotional development is impeded by the biological damage the pathogen does?"

    There was a case mentioned in one of the British papers about a man who suffered a severe injury and he became gay. Taking the article at face value, he did seem different from other gays in that he was sensitive and monogamous. Again, taking it at face value and depicting him as he was at that time, which was not far from the time of the incident.

    A man like him is different than other homosexuals: we know his was not from a pathogen, he became this way in adulthood, he had not lived his life in such a way to be vulnerable to stds and drugs, things that both cause and aggravate existing psychosis as well as impact overall health.

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  13. ""who's truth?"

    The truth."

    Gay acceptance benefits liberals but hurts conservatives. I'm a liberal, so while gays may indeed be emotionally stunted, gay acceptance still benefits me.

    Also, vast majority of gays don't kill, even if they may be more prone to do so.

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  14. Just two years after The Silence of the Lambs, the tide had already turned, with the #9 movie, Philadelphia, starring a gay martyr. At that early point, though, they couldn't totally lie to the public and expect them to buy it, so the main character does admit that, yeah, I guess I got AIDS from anonymous sex with some dude in a porno theater -- oh spare me, like you homophobic bigots never have?

    I was about 12 when this movie came out. I was so clueless then abbout who really gets AIDS, and I didn't know what homosexuality was.

    Couple points about the movie:

    (1) The Tom Hanks character, the gay HIV infected lawyer said he had sex "once" and then got HIV. Yeah whatever.

    (2) There's a scene where some of the alpha lawyers are at the country club making jokes about "faggots" not realizing that one of the lawyers in the group is gay. The gay lawyer says he feels uncomfortable. This scene is recounted during the AIDS discrimination lawsuit.

    I mean, giving someone AIDS? Ok. Making a gay joke? Unacceptable.

    (3) The gay lawyer develops full blown AIDS and his latent Kaposi's sarcoma becomes active or whatever. It's so nasty. They actually show him with purple lesions all over his chest.

    That's also recounted as part of AIDS discrimination lawsuit. The law partners figured out that he had AIDS from his purple lesions.

    The gay lawyer was supposedly super competent, and so it was wrongful to fire him on account of his symptomatic AIDS.

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  15. he gets to exult that, "for once in my life somebody loves me, they really love me!"

    Don't their mothers love them? What about their fag hags?

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  16. What are lesbian parents like?

    A lot of them look gender-ambiguous. Some of it (like their facial features and the way they walk) seems to be innate. And some of it seems to be cultivated (manner dress, hairstyle).

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  17. "Don't their mothers love them?"

    Sometimes, but inappropriately so. Pschyological studies show that gay men have "overly involved" relationships with their mothers - either the mother is cruel, or smothers the son.

    "Some of it (like their facial features and the way they walk) seems to be innate"

    I'm almost certain homosexuality is basically genetic, but this doesn't invalidate the ideas presented in agnostic's post(not saying I agree totally with them).

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  18. "What are lesbian parents like?"

    I know three sets of lesbian parents. Two are pretty normal. One is life-long lesbian, the other converted after having 2 kids w/ a guy. The LLL is riot, lots of fun, the convert is a bit strait-laced. Another pair consists of a bulldyke theology student and a rather lesbo convert. Again I find the LLL more sympathique. All these strike me as pretty good parents, but the kids would be better off w/ a man. The last pair are my very bulldykish cousin and her.... partner. They are both horrible and crazy, and their kid (source unknown) is feral. I used to have fun with my cousin when we were teens.

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  19. I have also heard of adoption studies saying there didn't seem to be any observable problem, but like the commenter above I'm open to the idea that political correctness taints scientific investigation of the issue. Is there any dataset agnostic would recommend?

    "Do you think the pathogen stunts emotional development or do you think the emotional development is impeded by the biological damage the pathogen does?"
    How would the pathogen have any effect other than through biological damage?

    "Also, vast majority of gays don't kill, even if they may be more prone to do so."
    Agnostic was talking about SERIAL killers. That's a tiny minority of all homicides. I'd wager that most of your standard boring homicides are committed by heterosexual men, particularly those on the more "mating effort" end of the cad-dad spectrum. The stereotypical street gang does not contain homos.

    "I'm almost certain homosexuality is basically genetic"
    I suppose this isn't the place to start a debate, but that theory never made sense to me. Your genes did not evolve to kill you or waste mating effort, and sure enough twin discordance is pretty high.

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  20. Off-topic but this study on the increasing use of minor key and slower tempo (along with "emotional ambiguity") in popular music from the 1960s through 2010 sounds like agnostic's bag. Personally, I like a lot of those things even if I don't care for current music.

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  21. The point in looking at serial killers is to consider only those murderers that everyone agrees have profound psychological problems.

    A street gang is for looting, self-protection, and group-level protection. Not uncommon across the world or over time. Ditto when a husband kills a mating rival. They're psychologically normal -- we understand right away where they're coming from, whether we condone their behavior or not.

    Serial killers combine narcissism, impulsivity, and lack of empathy, and general fucked-up-ness all of which are obviously higher among gays. But to put numbers on it, we look at over-representation among serial killers (or some other group combining such traits).

    Take two normal curves for normal and gay males, representing this abstract trait. It's normal because it's the sum of any number of constituent trait distributions.

    Along the dimension of anti-sociality, identify an arbitrary threshold, although chosen so as to make data collection easy. Then find what fraction of each curve lies beyond that threshold.

    You can invert that fraction to get a z-score. The difference between those z-scores is the difference in means between the two groups.

    This is La Griffe du Lion's "method of thresholds," and it makes it easier to compare group means when the full distribution is not known, although good data exist for extreme levels of the trait.

    Over-representation beyond a threshold, then, tells you about whose mean is higher than who else's.

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  22. "Hopelessly contaminated or what? Wouldn't that kind of direct data be a better way to test whether gays have more "Mommy Dearest" type personalities on average?"

    Beyond PC contamination issues ("Yes, my gay friend is a totally normal parent, just like his trolling for cock after work was totally normal"), they're only looking at pre-school adoptees. Conflict erupts more during adolescence and young adulthood.

    It also debases human relationships to only talk about how the child turns out on some array of variables, as though it were just a matter of quality control for manufacturing some widget.

    Independent of how they turn out, children shouldn't be adopted by people who want to use them in status-seeking contests ("Look at my Ugandan baby," "See, gays can parent too, bigots!"). Nor by people who primarily want to adopt for emotional validation, rather than altruism or nurturing or an other-focused reason.

    Now that could be quantified by surveys -- motivation for adopting. Gays show little/no interest in nurturing compared to heterosexual women, which is why it's the female kin who help out their family, while the gay is off indulging himself. But a survey that quantified this obvious difference would be worth doing to see just how big the gap is.

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  23. "I mean, giving someone AIDS? Ok. Making a gay joke? Unacceptable."

    LOL. Next time conservatives get into "culture-jamming," that should go on a banner that gets unfurled somewhere in San Francisco.

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  24. "I kind of the last person to find myself sticking up for gays, but I do wonder where you get the idea they are emotionally stunted? If you've a study on that, I'd like to see it."

    I haven't seen any studies, as they couldn't get funded. Search this blog for "Peter Pan," and it'll give the posts where I detail how most of gay deviance can be reduced to their Peter Pan-ism and addictive personalities. Maybe the latter can be reduced to the former, but it can be a bit of a stretch.

    This is all from observation and widely agreed-to stereotypes. I spend an hour or so in Starbucks every day, where perhaps 10% or more of the men are queer. So I've got a pretty good understanding of even their subtler differences by now.

    For example, did you know that gays are more likely to kick their heels against the ground while walking, especially when trying to get someone's attention? I never see normal men *or* women doing that. It's unique to gays. I occasionally see small children do that when they're bored, so there's another possible Peter Pan-ism.

    "Do you think the pathogen stunts emotional development or do you think the emotional development is impeded by the biological damage the pathogen does?"

    I'm not sure of the distinction you're drawing, but I think the social-emotional stunting could come from a direct or indirect pathway. Direct, as in the pathogen damages some parts of the brain responsible for maturing psychologically.

    But perhaps indirect, like if you don't need to reach out to and understand the opposite sex, you wind up more socially-emotionally stunted. Gays have their own brand of autism, and it could stem from their not having to understand the female mind, and not having to subtly negotiate their behavior with girls toward a variety of goals.

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  25. "Your genes did not evolve to kill you or waste mating effort, and sure enough twin discordance is pretty high."

    We had this argument before, but basically there's a theory - which makes sense - that homosexuality evolved amongst men of low attractiveness, low height, and low intelligence. It was a survival mechanism. If you're ugly, short and stupid, then you'll increase survivability by not being attracted to women and therefore not competing for a decent looking one.

    Keep in mind, for most of human history, there was social pressure on all men to marry and reproduce(to get manpower for militaries) - including gays. In other words, in the past most gays reproduced.

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  26. "Agnostic was talking about SERIAL killers. That's a tiny minority of all homicides. I'd wager that most of your standard boring homicides are committed by heterosexual men, particularly those on the more "mating effort" end of the cad-dad spectrum. The stereotypical street gang does not contain homos."

    I meant to say "even if gay men are prone to serial killing".

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  27. Agnostic,
    A commenter above said he was liberal (I think he means promiscuous or at least wishes to be) and hence, doesn't mind homosexuality. This is extremely common and this "don't mind me and I won't mind you" thinking can be seen during periods of debauchery going back to antiquity.

    My question is, how exactly do you think homosexual acceptance and hetero promiscuity are linked? Why are people so accepting of homos today like they were back in the 70s*, but without the other relaxations such as increased hetero promiscuity, acceptance of seducing young girls, swinging, etc?

    *Roman Polanski's rape of the 13-year-old was dismissed constantly with a shrug of the shoulders and the cry, "But it was the '70's!"

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  28. "Do you think the pathogen stunts emotional development or do you think the emotional development is impeded by the biological damage the pathogen does?"

    TGGP: "How would the pathogen have any effect other than through biological damage?"

    Whoa! Now that'll teach me to proofread my posts.

    I'll try again. Do you think the pathogen's strategy is to stunt emotional growth because that benefits its ability to spread? Or is what you call "stunted" emotional development a side effect of the infection/inflammation caused by the pathogen?

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  29. "Although I find your thoughts on rising-crime, falling-crime interesting, I do think your posts on gays and Jews and other outgroups often seem to lack direct data."

    Dahlia when I read this post I thought the same thing. It kind of seems as though agnostic met a couple of annoying homos at the club and decided to apply their personalities to the whole group. I am biased of course because I grew up with two lesbian parents. Never have I had any interest in meeting my biological father (they went to a sperm bank) nor have I ever felt a "hole" in my life from the lack of a male family presence. It just was never a big deal and I grew up in a safe and balanced family. I had a wonderful childhood and my parents are awesome. I know i'm running the NAGALT (not all gays are like that) argument but seriously! Your experiences and ideas are so entirely different from mine about homos that I feel compelled to say something.

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  30. Nah, I've been around more 'mos and for longer than most people. Some of that has been for the worse (like having creepy mummified faggots eying you in Starbucks), but it's also given me a far richer picture of just how screwed up they are.

    Just to give three examples of those who I was close friends with:

    - A good friend in college was gay, and anytime we ate in the dining hall together, he could never hold eye contact for more than a few seconds -- always checking out other dudes. You could see his eyes trailing left or right as the guy walked, and up and down to check out his body.

    Never happened with any normal guy or girl I've ever known. That's part of their addictive personality, and inability to truly empathize with another person.

    - In a separate circle of friends in college, two were "dating" each other. Turns out they could do things with other guys; they were just the first on each other's lists of warm bodies. So much for gay exclusive relationships.

    - My first real friendship with a gay was a guy who claimed to be bisexual but never talked about, looked at, or approached girls, hence was gay but either in denial, or more likely in his case, trying to score coolness points during the alterna-grunge heyday. This was 1994-'95 when gays were only beginning to come out.

    He was a central part of our group of friends in 8th grade, at least at school (he lived somewhat far away, so we only hung out a few times outside school). He went to a different high school from the rest of us, and several years later I asked a mutual friend -- my best friend at the time -- what ever happened to him?

    Sometime in the early high school years, he killed himself by jumping out of a window (or off a roof, I can't recall exactly). I don't know why, not sure my friend did either. But probably a combination of their thin skin, selfishness, and characteristically drama queeny behavior. He couldn't have swallowed pills or anything -- he had to leap out of a building.

    By now I've forgiven him. But I understand now how truly unstable and immature they are. They can't function on their own and need paternalistic supervision, staying in the closet, etc. It's sickening and even worrisome to see the entire society egging the faggots on -- do whatever you like.

    Then it's a big surprise when they ruin themselves by drug addictions, AIDS, and suicide. If I were in a black humor mood, I'd say, hey, a victimless crime. But they are human beings, and they don't deserve to have clueless liberals cheerleading them into their own misery and destruction.

    Not to mention the harm done to others -- having to support their health care bills from drug use and VD, and the harm done to people close to them when they kill themselves.

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  31. You can't count the guy you passed by at starbucks as one of the "gays you know."

    For someone who claims to be an empathetic straight guy, you seem to have a surprising lack of empathy for a "friend" of yours who killed himself. The guy probably had some issues that he wasn't telling you. I don't know that person but I would bet there was a lot more going on than just him being a drama queen. I actually have 5 people in my extended family who are gay, plus meeting all of their friends throughout the years and I never saw the kind of conclusions you're trying to draw. On the other hand, I have had bad experiences with a few gays. My high school had a couple real obnoxious ones. But I've also had the opposite experience (in my family) with gays who are awesome, emotionally balanced, and empathetic individuals. All I'm saying is that you can't assign 3 personality traits to that large of a population. If you came up with some hard data maybe I'll reconsider my views but so far your evidence is pretty weak. Normally I wouldn't get into this kind of commenting spiral but I like your blog quite a bit and just wanted to give my 2 cents.

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  32. I'd estimate there have been around 4000 gays who've been in Starbucks while I've been there. Roughly 5 there every day, 300 days a year, for three years. And I'm there for awhile, so I have time to notice behavior.

    Not all of those incidents are different people of course, but most are, since I know who the regulars are (gay or not). One of them is a middle-aged queer who's adopted two girls and parades that fact around as much as possible.

    So it's not just one creepy gay mummy who's eyed me over. I'd say about 90% of gays try to get my attention -- kicking their heels against the ground, pointing their legs out, projecting their lisping buzzing voice, trying to make eye-contact, etc.

    And that's just Starbucks, not to mention all the other public spaces like supermarkets, the university library, etc. I've actually not run into a whole lot in clubs and bars. This is just how they act in normal areas, in broad daylight. They're far more depraved at night and in clubs.

    Yep, been to a gay club in Barcelona three times, when chick friends or queers in the group of friends insisted that we hang out there. You ever seen three TV sets showing up-close, hardcore porn in a nightclub, in the main area and not even in a secluded area? Or guys piling into the "dark room" to spread disease while getting each other off?

    The three close friends I listed were, as I said, just a few off-hand examples. There were plenty of others in my various social circles.

    You might live in a more sheltered area where you don't get to see how gays act when left to their own devices. My experiences are from college, and then city living afterwards. It's a real eye-opener.

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  33. "you seem to have a surprising lack of empathy for a "friend" of yours who killed himself. The guy probably had some issues that he wasn't telling you. I don't know that person but I would bet there was a lot more going on than just him being a drama queen. "

    This confuses empathy with non-judgementalism. Just because you understand where someone's coming from, and can be on the same wavelength emotionally, doesn't mean you have to approve of what they're doing. Indeed, if they're going in a self-destructive direction, a truly empathetic person will pass judgement and try to steer them back to normal life. Whether it's a priest, a shrink, or a friend.

    I felt more pity for him at the time, but that was at least 15 years ago. You don't feel sad forever.

    Plus suicide is a selfish and cowardly act that harms those close to you. So they naturally have a right to feel angry at the person. How do you think someone's parents feel when their kid gives them the ultimate middle finger by killing themselves?

    It's the kind of thing a small child fantasizes about -- running away and having your parents discover your dead body, that'll show 'em. Even a teenager should be able to deal with their problems better than suicide.

    And the idea that they have such monumental problems that none of the rest of us could understand, let alone help them through, is 1) bogus, since we have our own problems, often larger than the overly dramatic person thinking of suicide, and 2) an insult to those close to him, like we just don't care or have it too good to relate to them (bogus).

    I remember a lot of young people having these same reactions to the more news-worthy suicide of Kurt Cobain. It's selfish, cowardly, and an insult to those who wanted to be there for him. While still feeling sorry for whatever he was going through, we were still shook up and later pissed off that he would rather cut himself loose from mankind, as though other people were a trapping net rather than a support net.

    Again, more than 15 years later, I can't say I still feel sad like I did when I was told the news in the hallway in 8th grade. By now, it's more a matter of learning to forgive people for the destructive and sinful things they've done.

    I don't mind the "comment spiral." I've been meaning to get some of this off my chest for awhile.

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  34. So I take it you're somewhat Kantian rather than a consequentialist?

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  35. "Again, more than 15 years later, I can't say I still feel sad like I did when I was told the news in the hallway in 8th grade. "

    Didn't you say he'd committed suicide in high school?

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  36. I meant being told about Kurt Cobain's suicide in 8th grade.

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  37. It's the kind of thing a small child fantasizes about -- running away and having your parents discover your dead body, that'll show 'em. Even a teenager should be able to deal with their problems better than suicide.

    In my experience, I think suicidal ideation tends to be associated with being terrified about how your family will react and terrified about hurting them - e.g. Robert Howard (the author) who really wanted to kill himself, but waited until his Mom died. I don't think there are many revenge suicides or public suicides as a share of the total - you could read a lot of impulsive suicides like that, but I don't think they really are.

    I think it also tends to be associated with feeling that you're just no good and that no one can solve your problems, not really that you're above other people and that if you can't solve your problems, no one can, because they're all clueless.

    And not wanting to be a burden on other people, or a toxic influence in their lives. Suicide can be very other focused that way.

    It's a shame there's no way to look at attitudes towards martyrdom and self sacrifice in rising crime times - that's a kind of "suicide" after all, but is very definitively "other focused", whereas just "suicide" has a bit more ambiguity to it.

    How do you think someone's parents feel when their kid gives them the ultimate middle finger by killing themselves?

    They probably fixate on their kid rather than how it hurts their ego as parents. Parents are nurturant and other focused, right? That would be the normal reaction, not to freak out in a kind of insecure drama queen way about "What is says about me".

    All this "suicide is bad because your life is owned collectively" is a weird unnecessary conception - suicide is bad because people dying is bad.

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  38. "I don't mind the "comment spiral." I've been meaning to get some of this off my chest for awhile."

    Alright, I'll go ahead then. I'm not a feminist troll by the way, hope I'm not coming across as one hah.

    "So it's not just one creepy gay mummy who's eyed me over. I'd say about 90% of gays try to get my attention -- kicking their heels against the ground, pointing their legs out, projecting their lisping buzzing voice, trying to make eye-contact, etc."

    You are a target of their attention and I know plenty of straight men in the same position and they have every right to get annoyed/grossed out. I get anxious when men say things or look at me in a leery way as well so I understand that. But you probably realize that girls get the same treatment from men (or at least I have). I'm pretty sure a commenter said this but that is definitely a product of the male sex drive, not just a gay thing. You're bothered by men who proposition you and that's okay but again, that doesn't provide you with a real wide experience of homosexuals, no matter how many thousands of dudes hit on you. it's all the same experience.

    "Yep, been to a gay club in Barcelona three times, when chick friends or queers in the group of friends insisted that we hang out there. You ever seen three TV sets showing up-close, hardcore porn in a nightclub, in the main area and not even in a secluded area?"

    I donno I've watched gay hardcore porn on the internet a few times (just out of curiosity) and I wasn't super grossed out. I've been to 1 gay club and it seemed like a standard club--people hopped up on youth and hormones and booze doing gross things. It was about the same level of seediness as regular clubs.

    As for my experiences with gay sex drives, I'm not gonna go into the sex lives of the ones I know but they definitely are not club skanks. Or maybe they were and they grew out of it as they got older..who knows? Even if my gay male family members were maniacs in their youth I just could not bring myself to care.

    "You might live in a more sheltered area where you don't get to see how gays act when left to their own devices. My experiences are from college, and then city living afterwards. It's a real eye-opener."

    Maybe I'm sheltered, maybe I'm not. I've never seen gays fisting each other in real life..does that make me sheltered? I acknowledge your claims, and I completely believe you about the seediness of the gay clubs and the promiscuity But I see both sides of that population. Like I just pointed out a few experiences of mine with gays. If you don't believe me I swear I'm not lying or anything. I'm curious why you immediately went to "oh she's sheltered" and then basically ignored the positive things I said. Based on the previous comments I can't help but think you have a bit of a blind spot.

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  39. Has it occurred to you that this may be because of the prejudice of the court sentencing LGBTQ people more frequently than hetereosexual people?

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  40. Right, because serial murder is kind of like jaywalking or petty drug possession. You know, the courts and juries don't really care so much about someone chopping up lots of people, and are convicting mostly due to other factors.

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  41. "I donno I've watched gay hardcore porn on the internet a few times (just out of curiosity) and I wasn't super grossed out."

    I meant have you seen hardcore porn in any straight club? In a gay club, you stand a good chance of seeing it on multiple TV screens out in the open. Whereas you never, ever see that in a random straight club.

    "I'm curious why you immediately went to "oh she's sheltered""

    It's not a put-down, just an observation. Here I am, just a normal dude who happens to have gone to a liberal-leaning college and lived in a couple cities afterwards, and the evidence just leaps out at me, not even trying to search it out.

    If someone else hasn't had similar experiences, they must live in a place where there aren't too many gays, or where they're thankfully kept in check.

    Here's a Hall of Fame post from 2blowhards about the same experience, just being in a place where there are lots of gays and having your eyes opened about how bizarre their behavior can get:

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

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  42. http://www.zombietime.com/folsom_sf_2007_part_1/

    Folsom Street Fair. Zombie mentions that there were some children taken there, no doubt by very naive and sheltered liberal parents who believed the "gays are just like us".

    No liberal parent would have done this in the 70s.

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  43. On the Folsom Street Fair,
    Kids were seen there in 2005, and this seemed to surprise the gay men and others themselves. In fact, they warn people upon arrival of the sexual nature though you don't get that impression from the newspaper articles. An article mentioned at least three kid, an infant whose mother said she didn't think she'd bring him back and this:

    Two-year-olds Zola and Veronica Kruschel waddled through Folsom Street Fair amidst strangers in fishnets and leather crotch pouches, semi and fully nude men.

    The twin girls who were also dressed for the event wore identical lace blouses, floral bonnets and black leather collars purchased from a pet store.

    Fathers Gary Beuschel and John Kruse watched over them closely. They were proud to show the twins off...

    http://michellemalkin.com/2007/10/01/miller-lite-approved-toddlers-at-the-folsom-street-fair/

    _____________

    If memory serves me correctly, Zombie went undercover (in 2007) there to photograph what it was really like as newspaper accounts portrayed the annual fair as normal.

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  44. One last thing.

    Compare the Zombie photo expose with this news video by the San Francisco Chronicle:
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?o=0&f=/c/a/2007/10/01/BAVESHALR.DTL

    It's hard to believe they're reporting on the same fair.

    The article that accompanies it does show that it is sexual, but downplays what really goes on.

    Also, going by memory and the article just seen... the mainstream press gives the very false impression that there are many straight people there, mainly by featuring the wild women. Zombie said, however, there were precious few. He noticed that the reporters flocked to these women... and that was about all the attention they got.

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  45. http://facts.randomhistory.com/serial-killer-facts.html
    86% of serial killers are heterosexual.

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  46. In other words, homos are 7 times over-represented among serial killers (they're 2% of the male population). Just like I said in the post.

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