December 21, 2020

Lads and lesbians as a counterbalance to girls and gays, among "content-creators" and audiences

An ongoing non-ironic joke with the Red Scare podcast hosts and their audience is that the show is primarily for "girls and gays". As with all things feminist, there's no such all-encompassing group as "girls" -- they mean a certain subset of them. Urbanite, transplants, high body count by age 30, open to experimenting with drugs, living in squalor, glorifying abjection, and so on and so forth. That creates a large overlap with how gays live, so they're two peas in a pod.

This primary filter leads to a secondary one for the straight guys who take part in the fanbase -- they're also urbanite transplants aiming for a high body count by age 30, will have few / no children, open to drugs, etc., and are looking to shack up with the girls in the primary audience. To the extent their lifestyles are similar, they may share cultural tastes, which can serve as conversation fodder in between episodes of abject hook-ups.

In contrast to this fast-living demographic, there's another mix of hetero and homosexuals of different sexes, who are more in the slow-living lane -- call them "lads and lesbians". As with all things MRA-ist, there's no such all-encompassing group as "guys" or "men" -- this would be a certain subset of them. Suburban, small town, rural, or unwilling urbanites. Low body count / volcel, aiming to have a lifelong pair bond and several children. Preferring natural vices like satiating meals and dancing rather than artificial ones like drugs. Living in charming coziness, eschewing abjection. That makes them overlap enough in lifestyle with lesbians for them to share a sub-culture.

(Yes, I know the term "lad" has the fast-living connotation, but it has to be alliterative with "lesbian" to counterbalance "girls and gays". "Dudes and dykes" is too rude to forge an alliance. "Guys and gal-lovers" sounds too forced. Maybe "lads and lezzies" for a more informal, gently negging tone.)

With that primary filter in place, a secondary one would select for straight girls who were interested in such guys as boyfriends, husbands, and fathers of their children. Girls from a similar demographic.

Just as the (certain subset of) girls need to be able to vibe with their gay friends, these guys would have to be a subset of their sex who could vibe with lesbians. Most lesbians aren't that butch, so we're talking guys who are not high-energy dominant go-getters, nor the attention-seeking type who were the class clown, life of the party, lead singer, or other entertainer. Sensitive, introspective, empathetic, self-effacing, social harmony over individual ambition.

If it were a podcast about politics, without any irony I would sum up a potential co-host pair as Michael Tracey and Tulsi Gabbard. (I'm not 100% sure she's lesbian, but after looking into their distinct characteristics this year, it seems more likely than not. The point being that the woman would at least have to strongly ping your lezdar.)

And although there are lots of guys in this mold on the left (especially the trad-Caths), I'd wager a majority of the groypers (the original kind) are of this type as well. Like Red Scare, this project would have to be heterodox enough to attract people from both sides of the spectrum. For instance, this one would be more SWERF-y and TERF-y (feminists opposed to sex work and to men-pretending-to-be-women hijacking the LGBTQ discourse and policies).

Then again, maybe the hosts would be only straight guys, who could attract a large enough lesbian following to brand themselves as "lads and lesbians," in a mirror-image of Red Scare. "Tfw no tradwife gf" guys, and cottagecore girls (straight or lesbian).

I'm not even sure the focus would be mainly politics or cultural commentary. These guys and their lesbian fellow travelers are less cerebral than usual for the media / entertainment sector. There would be more of a focus on the crafts, not only the arts, and practical rather than theoretical concerns. Artisanal cooking (of your own), vintage clothing, antique books, DIY home maintenance, folk music and dance, weightlifting and sports rather than cardio, all that calm and cozy stuff. And since lesbians generally do not have big boobs, this would be a rare case of butt girls having a room of their own in the discourse, which is dominated by cerebral boob girls.

The intro song would not be electronic dance club oriented, but combining folk, indie, rock, heart-on-sleeve sincerity, desire for intimacy, yet falling back on moody pining from afar -- something by Mazzy Star. (In retrospect, Hope Sandoval gives pretty strong lesbian vibes.) If more mainstream, Taylor Swift from 2010-'14 (her lesbianism is an open secret). Hard to think of better uniters of slow-living sensitive guys, sensitive girls, and lesbians in particular.

It wouldn't have to be a podcast, of course -- too many of those damn things anyway. YouTube show, livestream, group blog, or other "long-form" and episodic format, with fans reacting ideally on a site of their own (forum, blog comments section, etc.), or if not, a sub-culture on Tumblr (God forbid the gatekeeped sites of Twitter or Reddit).

I contain multitudes, and would not be the target audience -- I'd be split between the grinding to Charli XCX in a dance club audience of Red Scare and the lap-cat by the fireplace audience of the Lads and Lezzies show. So there are probably some other common factors to be pointed out, and I'll add them in the comments as they occur to me. Leave your own as well.


  1. This is actually very true. While I am a "lead singer type" I'm more intellectual and broody/weird. I always seem to get along instantly with Lesbians, and can speak frankly and honestly with them. I might take you up on this idea...a simple YouTube cultural rambling, shying away from outrage at wokeness, and more introspective looks at life. The target demographic would be people that love King of the Hill.

    As for theme song I think somethi g by Tori Amos, and close with something by Bon Iver or Bright Eyes.

  2. This brilliant article describes the divide as "concrete" vs "virtual"

  3. A lot of guys get along with lesbians w/o knowing, b/c they're not flamingly obvious like gays are. So it's not only that they tend to be more normal than gays, but on a meta-level, they don't call much attention to their homosexuality one way or another.

    (LOL at them for thinking straight guys must pick up on "all the clear signs" that you'd only know from watching lesbian Tik Toks. Clothing styles, grooming choices, etc. Whatever, you just look like a skater girl or an alterna-chick from the '90s, not necessarily lesbian. Most guys are totally oblivious, unlike being aware of the presence of a flamer guy in the area.)

    Nearly a decade after gay marriage, pride parades, etc., lezzies would still rather blend in or fade back like wallflowers, rather than try to steal the spotlight wherever they go like gays do.

    Aside from being a breath of fresh air in a maximum degeneracy in-your-face society, that kind of behavior is charmingly feminine. They lack the chipper, perky kind of femininity that comes from having to attract male attention, but it's no less feminine. Just a slow-living, low-key version of it.

  4. "Crushes on lesbians" would be a revealing segment, especially since they're probably closeted. I don't know how many guys ever had a huge crush on Jodie Foster, for example.

    But like Tulsi Gabbard. I'm still smitten, even suspecting she's probably a girl-lover. I've had an enduring, recurring crush on Hope Sandoval since 7th grade when "Fade Into You" came out. Awhile ago I used to binge-watch Law & Order, and was always drawn more by the quiet allure of Jill Hennessy's character than the more overt sex bomb / model ADA's like Angie Harmon. In retrospect, she gave off very strong lesbian vibes, though I don't think she's out.

    Not so much for the butchier, more masculine, Queen Bee types -- Beyonce, Rihanna, Dua Lipa, et al. Nice looking, but the aloofness and dominance is a turn-off. I do love Dua Lipa as a performer, though.

    One of my best friends from 8th grade came out as lesbian in adulthood, and a lot of guys had had a crush on her. Nobody suspected it.

    It's another glaring difference with gays. When a straight girl has a crush on a gay guy, it's like "How can you not tell? Sad." But since lesbians aren't obvious about it, it's easy for straight guys to crush on them, and not feel silly upon learning or suspecting she's not into guys. Everybody was unsuspecting, not just you. You don't feel stupid for being the only one who didn't know.

  5. Mazzy Star's cottagecore video for "Halah" (1990). Always liked that album best (She Hangs Brightly), and then Among My Swan, more than So Tonight That I Might See (the one with "Fade Into You").

    One thing I remember reading gays being so insecure about is their inability to be cool. They're always so nervous and frazzled, and their cultural visibility comes from being spotlight-hogging drama queens cranking it up to 11, often descending into camp.

    Then look at how effortlessly Hope Sandoval pulls off coolness. Tulsi too, in an aloha-inflected way. Could not be any less gay.

    The root of male homosexuality is neoteny, stunted in the "ewww, girls are yucky" phase around age 5, when boys and girls alike are constantly bouncing off the walls vying for the grown-ups' attention. Gays just never mature out of that life stage.

    Female homosexuality, on the other hand, is defined by a peri-menopausal life stage. They're passed that wild-and-crazy adolescent / young adult stage, and are ready to just ride out life in as mellow of a way as possible. Psychologically and physically checked-out of the mating market by age 23. Mature without having gone through the crucial life experiences of getting close to the opposite sex.

  6. Double dose of MPDG news today. Zooey Deschanel plays earthly guardian angel role (for the entire planet) as Katy Perry's doppelganger in new music video for "Not the End of the World".

    With the return of the restless warm-up phase of the 15-year excitement cycle, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl type is going to work her charm in a way we haven't seen since the second half of the 2000s.

    I already called that at the beginning of the year, but it's nice to see some of the figures from the last such phase reprising their roles.

    Not just Zooey either -- Katy herself was cast as a 21 year-old MPDG before she hit it big, in the song and music video for "Simple" from 2005. Still can't believe that's her, one of the true pop culture treasures I unearthed earlier in the year while researching the MPDG phenom.

    Aaaaand, Alison Balsam is back on Twitter (sorta), @foolinthelotus. Protected for now, but maybe she'll make a public appearance in the New Year.

    Making a Christmas wish to, at some point, hear her covering Au Revoir Simone covering "Fade Into You". She could be the long-lost member of either band, but she's more of a synthy gal, and born in the early '80s, so more like Au Revoir Simone.

    Everybody I named was born in the first half of the '80s, a manic phase, btw (posted about that earlier in the year about the birth phase of MPDGs).

    One of the really satisfying things I appreciate as I reflect on being an early '80s birth, is how many future Manic Pixie Dream Girls I went to school with. Some of them were already like that in middle school, actually! I'll have to take pictures of my 7th grade yearbook signature section sometime...

  7. Taylor Swift showing that lesbians are butt girls, part 2. Boob focus is for more juvenile minds ("mommy, gimme milk"), butt focus for more mature minds. And lesbians are defined by a peri-menopausal life stage -- more mature than the average woman. They're the antithesis of gay neoteny, they're anti-twinks.

    In the original post on that topic, I mentioned Taylor getting butt pads -- not a boob job -- to wear at some big award show a few years ago.

    Either she's wearing the pads again, or she's thickening out. But whatever it is, look where it's going, and where she's drawing attention. Not a boob woman.

    Her whole aesthetic rebrand is more openly lesbian, or WLW at any rate. Cottagecore, witchtok, etc. (not a huge departure from her tradwife gf brand earlier on). And if she's presenting more openly as lesbian, naturally she has to show off her A rather than T in order to pique their curiosity.

    I wonder if the deluxe release of her new CD has a Girl in Red cover song in the bonus tracks...

  8. Taylor lyrics mention mementos of past relationships, which "girls and gays" find corny and sappy, but which "lads and lezzies" find endearing and charming. E.g. the scarf that the singer left at her former lover's home in "All Too Well".

    L&L are attached to particular physical objects with sentimental value. They not only do not mind reminders of the past -- good and bad -- but want to preserve them in a tangible, palpable form that cannot be ignored, forgotten, or denied. That's not just intimate relationships, but friendships, family, and so on.

    G&G are more attached to abstract things like memories per se, not mementos of those experiences. They're way more likely to not want to hold onto concrete things with sentimental value across their various household moves. The only thing they mention lugging from one place to another is books.

    Not the handwritten letter a close college friend sent you? Or the photo they took and developed themselves? Or the mix CD they made for you? Or anything else like that?

    All part of the abjection phenomenon -- no physical mementos of anything that ever happened in your life, and not really minding it that much.

    You'll just rent your memories anyway, vicariously experiencing other peoples' lives via parasocial media that you subscribe to. It's really striking how easily that pod lifestyle draws on the G&G audience, but not the L&L audience. The L&L are adamant about "I will not live in the pod, I will not eat the bugs, I will not rent my social interactions by subscribing to podcasts, jerking off to porn, or watching multiplayer online Twitch streams".

    Who do you think is more likely to have Christmas ornaments more than 5-10 years old, including those from their childhood? L&L, not G&G. Or wanting a real tree, not a fake one or no tree at all.

    For L&L, experiences, relationships, and physical tokens of them, are not just disposable things-that-happened. For G&G, they're all just a chaotic swirl trailing behind them that they're either actively trying to block out of consciousness, or develop a dgaf / celebrate attitude toward it.

  9. The outdoors is a safe space for lads and lesbians, away from the degeneracy of the girls and gays.

    I was watching a lesbian Tik Tok compilation on YouTube, and one clip rated various lesbian sex-having locations -- the bed, the shower, etc. One of them was "in the woods," and I thought that was the least gay thing I've ever heard.

    Only lads and lesbians enjoy the great outdoors, whether it's hiking, camping, having a picnic, hunting & fishing, or whatever else. You'll never find a fag doing trail maintenance, although I could totally picture a lezzie in her Bean boots and vintage Woolrich pullover doing so. How wholesome, right?

    These days, pretty much every public space is infested with gays, especially retail or food / leisure spots. But I don't remember ever being creepily gawked at / followed / etc. by gays on a trail, whether hiking, biking, or a simple walking trail through a suburban area where normies are walking their dogs. Not one of their cruising locations.

    I actually see very few gays at the parks I stroll around. There may be a designated gay park somewhere, but that's still totally different from retail, where every possible retail location is being camped out by at least one creepy gay stalker at any given moment. With parks, it's not a sector-wide phenomenon -- they have their segregated space, if that.

    For lesbians, maybe it's more skate parks specifically than parks in general, but again that's still a pretty broad category, not just "this one specific park designated as the gay / lesbian park".

    There's also no stereotype of gays going camping, renting a cabin in the woods, etc. That's definitely a lesbian thing.

    It's another aspect of the cozy groyper / cottagecore inclinations on both sides of the lads and lesbians alliance (e.g., the "girl in wheatfield" aesthetic), and another thing that both groups within "girls and gays" find corny and sappy.

    But the straight girls who have trad tendencies would certainly enjoy hiking, camping, picnics, and the like. Just not the ultra-urbanite ones who glorify living in overpriced squalor. Taking a risk and kissing your best friend while roaming around the woods -- um, weird much? But sucking some rando's cock in a filthy club restroom -- totally normal and cool.

  10. I wish thrift stores were for lads and lesbians only, like Red Scare wishes social media were for girls and gays only.

    But both spaces are too general in their appeal -- all manner of things being sold at cheap prices, and communicating with others at a great distance.

    Still, I wish there were designated L&L thrift stores, and separate ones for G&G (trad / normie straight girls going into the former). Just like Red Scare wishes G&G could have Twitter to themselves, and L&L would stay on Facebook or some other site.

    The only hope is for further branding differentiation, where the market would segment into trendy / fashionable thrift stores where the G&G would hang out, and more sensible and timeless ones where the L&L would hang out.

    I don't mean upscale consignment stores for G&G, I mean a place where all their inventory comes from donations, it's across a broad range of categories, and most of it is not valuable antique stuff or whatever. But the decor, name, logo, location, etc., would distinguish it as the place where G&G would go, while the branding of the other stores would attract L&L (and repulse G&G).

    Similar to Target and Walmart being functionally identical, but branded very differently and drawing very different crowds, including Target being more creeped over by gays than Walmart.

    We need that to take place in the thrift store segment of retail -- a Target-feeling thrift store, and a Walmart-feeling thrift store, even though 99% of the products are the same in both places.

  11. Here's a good '80s memory of wholesome, normie girls:

  12. Spotted Toad has a tweet thread up on the disappearance of romantic heterosexual love from pop music. Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?

  13. Sinead O'Connor said she's always been a dyke, and her most famous song is about getting back together with an ex, for whom she's still pining uncontrollably.

    A section of straight women identify with torch songs -- they're the ones who fit in with the L&L crowd, rather than the straight female part of the G&G crowd.

    Yes I know Prince, a closeted gay man, wrote "Nothing Compares 2 U," but he didn't perform it. And he's the exception that proves the rule. He always was a gender-bender rather than a straight-up flamer, so to speak, writing songs in a female voice for the Bangles ("Manic Monday").

    The typical gay song would focus on the rejection, heartbreak, etc., of the jilted lover -- not elevating the ex, and wanting to reconnect with them because otherwise they'd miss the greatest chance they ever had at true love.

    How many Tumblr-isms are there in the video for her mega-hit from 1990, btw?

    - lesbian
    - buzzed hair
    - dark academia setting
    - goth-y version of cottagecore clothing

  14. "Nothing Compares 2 U" but abt Heather Habsburg deleting her account, from a reply guy or gal's pov.

    I would only write that under the condition that the "getting back together" would take the form of a blog and comment section, rather than Twitter posts and replies. We can't re-connect just to go right back to the same ways that failed before. Reincarnate as a blog, not a Twitter account (but use the account to drive former followers to your blog).

  15. The '80s were gay, the '90s were lesbian, to sum up the alternations between excitement cycles.

    Each cycle lasts 15 years, and goes through 3 phases (warm-up, manic, refractory / vulnerable). But they also alternate between a high-energy and a low-energy version.

    So the 1975-1989 cycle was very high-energy, most friendly to the girls and gays crowd. Disco, new wave, hair metal.

    Then when the next cycle began in 1990, it did the usual phase transition, from the refractory phase of the late '80s to the warm-up phase of the early '90s. But this warm-up phase, and the following manic phase, and the following refractory phase, were way lower in energy than their counterparts in the '75-'89 cycle.

    The '90-'94 warm-up phase was a lowkey version of the '75-'79 warm-up phase. The '95-'99 manic phase was a lowkey version of the '80-'84 manic phase. And the 2000-'04 vulnerable phase was a lowkey version of the '85-'89 vulnerable phase.

    When the overall energy levels of an entire cycle are lowered, it's more friendly to the lads and lesbians crowd.

    The 2005-'19 cycle was another high-energy cycle, reminiscent of the '75-'89 cycle. Very G&G.

    But now that the new cycle is beginning in 2020, lasting through 2034, its phases are going to be a lot less intense than their counterparts from the '05-'19 cycle.

    We already see the greater popularity today of '90s styles vs. late '70s or '80s styles, and I think the late 2000s and 2010s will be more of a minor trend / revival as well. Those two cycles are too high-energy to resonate as well as the '90s with the mood today.

    As another example, the whole rainbow aesthetic of either side of the homosexual crowd is going to go away. Saturated colors, contrasting temperatures, usually standing out against a bright white or black background -- too 2010s, too high-energy, too gay.

    It'll evolve into something more desaturated or pastel-y, less striking contrast in temperatures, and not jumping out from the background. Maybe the baby blue and powdery pink that's popular with lesbian Zoomers right now? Not coincidentally, a staple of the '90s aesthetic.

  16. It seemed like there was a whole subgenre of laidback, street-smart woman singers in the 90s. They may not have been lesbians, but they were probably popular with them, as well as the indie crowd in general:

    Edie Brickell - "What I Am":

    KT Turnstall, with "Suddenly I See"(a girl-crush song), somewhat echos Edie Brickell:

    Natalie Merchant: "Wonder" - the song is about the 'wonder' of women - so it could be popular with lesbians

    Hell, if you wanted to, you could even put Ace of Base's "The Sign" in this same category - laidback, more streetsmart.

    Jewel - "Who Will Save Your Soul"

    Lisa Loeb - "Stay"

    As I pointed out before, there was a subgenre of really girly-girl crush music in the 90s. But a lot of that music would appeal to lesbians; who maybe are more inclined to pine in their room rather than make a dramatic gesture.

    "I Love you, always forever" - Donna Lewis

    "Kiss Me": Sixpence None the Richer

    "Lovefool": The Cardigans

    The aforementioned singer Jewel had a girly-girl song also in the 90s:

  17. Not to mention known lesbians like Sophie B. Hawkins and 4 Non Blondes' lead singer Linda Perry. "Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover" (a WLW anthem) and "What's Up," both from '92. Melissa Etheridge and the Indigo Girls, too.

    Mellow yet soulful, is how I'd describe the vibe. Lesbians have a romantic streak that gays do not, because they're looking for long-term soulmate relationships, not disposable and interchangeable cum dumpsters like gays are. If anything, lesbians fall in love more readily than other groups (renting a U-Haul and moving in together after dating for 3 weeks, as their own meme goes).

    Edie Brickell is from the late '80s, btw.


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