October 29, 2009

Why straight men rationally dislike gay men

[Inspired by a conversation I just overheard in the campus dining hall between a flaming gay and his homely but slutty chick friend, who was sharing quite loudly the details of her waking up next to a guy whose name she didn't know but had gotten banged by earlier. Only a freshman in college, she is well on her way to becoming this middle-aged whore that Roissy observed at the end of her trainwreck.]

A common response to the question, "Why do straight guys have such disgust for gays?" is that they shouldn't -- after all, less competition! But because only around 3% of men are homosexual, that's not exactly weeding out a lot of potential competition. Factor in how desirable these guys would be if straight, and you're left with even fewer -- maybe 1% or less of all males weeded out.

Of course there are all sorts of visceral reactions that straights have toward gays, the most obvious being the thought -- or heaven forbid, the mental image -- of two guys doing it. And as enlightened human beings, we're supposed to put aside such "yuck test" results and provide clearer reasons.

So here's a perfectly rational motivation that straight men have to make homosexuals knock off their gayness: their interactions with (straight) women represent a form of pollution. Gay men are always there to convince a woman that she doesn't need to lose any weight, that any guy would be lucky to get with her, that she still has plenty of time before she has to settle down, and that she shouldn't feel guilty about being a slut --

I mean, god gave you that nasty thing down there for a reason girlfriend, you should own it! Psh, don't let anybody else tell you how to live your life!

The result is a woman with an inflated ego, less shame, and more venereal diseases. Some poor schlub will end up dating or (perish the thought) marrying this skag, and it won't be the gay himself who bears the costs of dating a polluted woman but the boyfriend or husband. Think of how much better the relationship would be if she were more humble, not so shameless, and free of syphilis. Indeed, it is inconceivable that the gay enabler will date or marry any such polluted woman. When pollution costs them nothing, they will churn it out like a tidal wave, with the costs being borne by straight men.

It is no surprise, then, that straights have an impulse to get the gays to keep quiet -- to do what they want behind closed doors, but to not ruin the dating and mating pool that we straights have to drink from.

Just to show that this is not irrational prejudice against gays per se, let's ask if there's a sub-group of straight men who also play the ego-inflating, shame-scrubbing role. Indeed there is -- we call them "white knights," "captain save-a-ho," and so on. These are loser straight guys whose only hail-mary hope of getting laid is to find a fairly homely and slutty woman and tell her that she's too beautiful for those other men out there, that she shouldn't be ashamed of being repeatedly used and tossed aside, etc.

Both he and the gay bff have selfish reasons for propping her up -- the former to hopefully sleep with her, the latter to have another close friend -- and just like the gay friend, his servile worship is tantamount to pollution. After all, once her mind's been ruined, he'll either have gotten some or not, and some other guy will have to pay the cost of dating an artificially delusional woman. And just as we saw before, most straight guys get disgusted when they see this kind of behavior:

Dude, you're pathetic -- grow some balls and stop kissing her ass.

Still, if gay men are only 3% of the male population, why make such a big fuss? Simple: each gay guy can and does spoil the brains of multiple females. Where they are in highish concentration, it might be around 10% of all females who they manage to pollute. That percentage would be frighteningly high -- as though there were one on each block.

The Nobel laureate economist Ronald Coase is famous for showing that, among other things, government regulation isn't necessary to solve problems like pollution of drinking water. The people who drink the water can negotiate with the polluters, and if the costs of these transactions are low, they'll settle their differences on their own. For example, the people might simply pay the polluters not to pollute if their harm was greater than the polluters' benefit. (Alternatively, the polluters might pay the people to put up with the filth if the pollution benefited the polluters more than it harmed the people.)

Before the openly gay era, the costs of straights negotiating with gays to keep their offensive behavior out of the public sphere were pretty low -- basically just a social stigma against homosexuality. When the stigmatized group members contemplate "coming out" in general, they see how difficult it will be, so they don't bother haggling at all. All the stigmatizers would have to do is shoot them a look like, "hey, remember what your place is," and that would have been the sum of the transaction costs.

In the post-disco era, though, the stigmatized group feels emboldened to bargain and fight back, so that the costs of negotiating between straights and gays has skyrocketed. Any straight guy who now says -- just as he would to a fellow straight "white knight" -- "C'mon, knock it off, you're ruining the women we have to date," will find himself on the wrong end of a hate speech lawsuit.

I mean, like, omigod, so -- what -- I can't make my best friend feel better about her open sexuality just because I'm gay? You don't know who you're messing with, mister -- I mean, we didn't struggle at Stonewall for nothing, and bitch we aren't going back!

Obviously the government isn't going to step in to deal with this market failure either. So really the only option that straight men have is to move somewhere else where the dating pool is not only free of homosexual pollution but has been purified by the tacit collective agreement among men to keep women's self-destructive tendencies from growing out of control.


  1. this is probably the most concise, multi-pronged assessment of why a man should be wary of a girl's gay friends...as much as he should be wary of her single girl friends...they give them the same irrational advice, the same untrue compliments, and support their other ridiculous beliefs about dating and relationships or in this case, slutty behavior.

    my biggest beef, is the gay guys who will shamelessly grab your girlfriend's ass, kiss them on the cheek, grind up on them, etc....and it's "ok" b/c it's under the guise of 'he's gay, so it's like a girl'....yeah, cept the the fact that he used to bang chicks and your girlfriends don't f'ing grab your ass or feel your tigs etc.

  2. Nick Szabo has an interesting argument against Coase here.

  3. I don't agree on the mechanism (gay men talking to their straight female friends). The problem is that gay movement necessarily is an ally to the sexual liberation movement. So pro-homosexual messages in the media and schools generally have pro-sexual liberation content as well.

  4. fsckthe20thcentury10/31/09, 6:20 PM

    I second the comment about being skeptical of the Coase theorem. Also, that theorem is about individual negotiations, not about social stigmas.

    Another reason to beware of your wife's gay boyfriend: In the ritzy suburb of Palo Alto, California there was a few years ago a guy who murdered his wife who had long ago cuckolded her. The couple were real estate salespeople during the real estate boom, and the murder came about long before the bust. The murder came about because the cuckolding became public when the wife revealed to their son who his real father was, after she had promised to never tell. This shamed the husband and brought back bad memories, and he just couldn't stand it any more.

    The cuckolding occurred because his wife insisted on inviting her gay boyfriend camping with them. Sweetheart, if you want to be my husband, prove to me you're not a homophobe by bringing my friend along. The husband obliged in this harmless proof of his political correctness and ended up spending all the rest of his life (a) raising another man's child and then (b) in prison for taking revenge for (a).

    Most gay men are bisexuals who normally find it easier to score with other gay men than with women. Lesson learned the hard way.

  5. Patrick Bateman11/4/09, 3:30 PM

    Sounds like sophistry to me if you're really trying to argue that this is the reason why most straight men dislike gays. Everything you say about gay men enabling the bad decisions of females is true, but I doubt the vast majority of straight men consider this, even subconsciously, when deciding they hate mos.

    This is something all straight men should seriously consider however. Be at least as wary of her mo friends as her female friends. They are your enemies.

  6. This is true insanity. Gay male friends are just people, you as straight males need to decide on who your friends and loved ones are. If she's a whore, don't marry her! If she's promiscuous But- can settle down, then you're in luck. Gay men do not create polution. If you are unhappy with something, take responsibility and talk about it. Your gf and you, S h o u l d be close enough to talk about these things. It's alright for you to be upset that they (your gf and her gay bff) kiss, touch eachother in inappropriate ways. Say something!! I as a gay man would for my bf.

    The key is that you can only be with a woman who wants to be with you. If she doesn't make you happy, looks like you just made a mistake about who you decided to date/screw. You are responsible for your own joy.

    A word of advice, if you can't beat em, join them- and I say this on a friendship based relationship. Gay men, who can respect boundaries-- are possibly a new good friend waiting to be made. Don't let prejudice ruin the possibility of everything going smoothly, before it's even started.

    If you really feel this is the case, talk to your gf/wife. If you can agree on boundaries, and abide by them- the equality in a relationship can stay. Some people however are just promiscuous. Men and women. The partner you choose to stand with to create joy for the two of you together is your choice. You are responsible for it.

  7. Gay people are not bisexuals. Bisexuals are bisexuals and gays are gays. Why would a bisexual claim to be gay? He would claim to be straight and fit in with the rest of society! He wouldn't submit himself to a life of ridicule to be rejected by society, to be picked on and bullied on by all those close minded bigots. Gay men are NOT attracted to WOMEN, THEY'RE GAY YOU MORON!

  8. fsckthe20thcentury11/16/09, 8:14 PM

    Tamakachi, you are seriously misinformed. There are very few references to full-time male homosexuality in the literature before the 20th century. It was quite a bit less common before the 20th century than it is now. It is largely a creature of 20th-century mobility, which has made it far easier for bisexuals to find each other. This has made it far easier for a bisexual to gain sexual access to other bisexuals than to women. Thus a phenomenon almost unique to the 20th century, namely the "homosexual" community, homosexual identity, and now the even more historically unique push for "gay marriage." Learn some history, Tamakachi, before spouting off and calling other people names that only apply to yourself.

  9. There were some fair points in that article but not all gay men are flaming queens. If two guys want to do that, I really don't have a problem with it as long as it doesn't cross certain lines.

    The thing about gays that infuriates me isn't so much their gayness, it's when they expect you to cater to it just because they are gay. I've had gay friends before in the professional world that were cool about it. You knew they were gay, they were open about it, but they weren't these flaming queens that expect you to bow down and make way for their lifestyle.

    You run into this phenomenon of expectant behavior on message boards a lot. Hey look at me! Look at my picture I'm a flaming queer and I DEMAND YOUR RESPECT! If you call me on it, I'm going to report you to the proper authorities. These people will do this in places where it's really not It's not really much different than being a cyber bully, and this kind of thinking has spilled over into society at large.

    If a person is gay, again, big deal. But when someone expects special treatment so that they can flaunt their gayness as the primary portion of their identity in most social situations, then I have a problem with it. Don't fire that guy, even though he's a sucky worker and a drama queen, he's gay and you'll be held accountable for it. Every imaginable reason you might have to discipline a worker, or call someone out for being stupid in general, all of a sudden has a discriminatory context to it, much like with people who enjoy abusing their minority status.

    If you saw a white guy raging about how his whiteness all the time, you'd probably think he was some kind of racist. I'm white, but it's not something I walk around flaunting all the time. Hey! Look at me! I'm white bitch! What now? Yeah... try pulling that crap and see how far it gets you.

  10. This is an interesting argument, and perhaps some men think along these lines (at least one does!). But it's also pretty complicated, and I'd say that most gay-hating straight men don't think about it this hard - they aren't this sophisticated.

    Besides, it has an obvious counter argument. As a gay man, I've done my share of boosting the confidence of my very hot straight male friends, who were surprisingly unaware that they were smokin' hot. I actually think it's pretty fun to do this, and I'm not the only one.

  11. This is the biggest load of bull ive ever heard.

    While a small percent of gay guy are queens (nothing wrong with that either), you seem to think all are. I find women just as strange and complex and incomprehensible as a straight guy. I dont spend a lot of time around women and don't really feel the need to - Why would I want to?

    Some of these comments are truly disgusting. Try replacing gay with 'black' in these comments and see if you still think it sounds so acceptable to talk like this. Its just a load of stereotyped bullshit.

  12. This article totally dismisses one important point (well, it dismisses most rational and intelligent thought, but here's a particularly pressing point): Gay men could just as easily be straight men's greatest ally. Gay men have the confidence of many of the women straight men lust after. I myself have encouraged my straight gal friends to go for my straight guy friends and dismissed their (sometimes valid) concerns about the guys.

    Since this article CLAIMS to be a rational argument for disliking gay men, then it does not pass muster. From an entirely rational perspective (i.e. disregarding gut reaction/emotion completely), there is no compelling evidence offered to explain why gay men are initially perceived as threatening rather than potentially helpful. There must be some initial valence appraisal before their connection to women is seen as a negative rather than a thought.

    It is that initial valence appraisal that we're interested in, and so far, this argument doesn't even begin to offer any possible reason for that decision to be based in rationality, rather than irrational, ignorant, idiotic, indefensible emotionality. Gays are icky. Blech. Good one.

    Try again.

  13. Making this about "gay men" misses a much more apt, general case of the same problem, that simply being "the dysfunctionally supportive friends of self destructive women" -- enablers.

    I do have experience with the case of gay men being the 'girlfriend' who is unconditionally supportive of obscene behavior, but gay men are a minority, and their involvement in this phenomenon is at most a side note, and certainly no reason for distrust of gay men generally.

  14. I find the remarks about the polluted nature of women interesting. I have no interest in arguing against or for your suggestion that gay men are the reason for women's sullied behavior. However, I will pose this question, why is there a double standard for men? What self respecting woman wants to engage in a relationship with a polluted man who's junk has been in his own fair share of sluts? If gay men are in the wrong for turning their straight female friends into promiscuous behavior then I challenge that every man who commends his buddy for being a "player" should be held to the same standard.

  15. Wow. After reading this post, I'm overcome by a reoccuring simultaneous hatred of myself and the world.

    I must be a horrible, perverted and grotesque woman. I enjoy the thought of homosexual love because between the genders there is too much war and hate to ever allow equality and the ideal of love to exist, and I enjoy the thought that men can be friends with women without sex getting in the way: such as, a male gay best friend.

    If these were the only things wrong with me, then perhaps I would not hate myself and the world so much after reading this piece. But no, it gets worse.

    I'm a virgin, nearing thirty, and I despise straight men. I realize the irony of it. The only reason I am not a "polluted, unclean" woman is because I dislike men and their hypocrisy so much, I can't find any love or trust for them. Otherwise, I'd be one of the ugly, disgusting sluts ragged on in the blog above.

    Is it any wonder I hate myself? If some man's great and wonderful trouser wizard approaches my dank and disgusting whore cave, then it's my fault. I'm the polluted woman. I'm the slutty animal who owns this horrific and terrible body. I don't deserve an ego. I don't deserve to have esteem. And I certainly should not ever make the mistake of sleeping with any man just for the sake of sex. That is something only reserved for men.

    I'm a pretty honest person. I'm a misandrist, and I despise most men. But I also dislike myself, because I buy into the hype - that I don't deserve love or sex because I'm ugly. Looks and levels of sluttiness are the only traits that matter to men.

    Then again, I don't think it's a big deal, because men in general really hate women. They don't treat them well, or equally. Ugly and fat women, such as myself, are derided and despised. Beautiful women who have sex and show off their fantastic bodies are derided and despised. Mothers with stretchmarks and wrecked vaginas are made fun of, flawed girls have those flaws shoved in their face constantly, and every day, instead of being treated like actual human beings, women are subjected to comparison with some impossible feminine ideal. One out of three women is raped or sexually assaulted in her lifetime - treated like nothing more than a public toilet rather than a being who deserves respect. This is not the act of a kind and loving gender. Men are, in general, neither kind nor loving towards women.

    And for some reason, it's always the woman's fault.

    The only men that give women a break? The 3%. Gay men. Because the only thing a straight man hates worse than a woman is a gay man. It's funny, because these are the only two groups of people men can have sex with. Men love sex, but they make jokes about, insult, beat, and hate the gender and sexual orientation of their partners.

    Why? I don't know. I can't understand it. If somebody can explain to me why men hate women so much, and why men REALLY hate gay men so much, beyond this crap about how gay men uphold the impurity and pollution of a woman's vagina - when really, it's the straight men banging the woman who are giving her the diseases...

    Could you tell me? Then maybe I wouldn't want to slice wrists over incessant garbage like this, that upholds every negative example I've ever notices about mankind and how the male gender treats their female counterparts.

    1. It's just a handful of internet misfits banging on a particular drum, sad that they are so bitter. In my experience most people are not as unhappy as this and do not project their own inadequacies onto others. Chill!

  16. Man, more slutty women means more sex, don't be square.

  17. You've been hanging around the wrong people, Lola. Find you some new friends, guys an gals, who really care for you and for each other. You're self-hatred and the hatred of ALL men is a sickness that is begot by a poisonous environment. Get out of there and get to a place that is safe ... before you decide to kill yourself.

  18. Thank god I am a lesbian. No wonder more and more women are turning lesbians. The main reason why I will never have sex with a man is because he is used goods, handed around like a pair of shoes amongst women. Straight women, all the best to you but I know a lot of women are turning lesbian these days and this article is the reason why. Men please continue with your garbage you're turning more women lesbian and that benefits me.

  19. I think what many men instinctively dislike is effeminacy. Traditionally men protected women , looked after women and sacrificed for women. Effeminate men are acting like women and are acting as if they are asking to be treated like women. That is they're asking for a free ride, which other men resent.


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