A recent comment about the song "Christmas Wrapping" by the Waitresses got me thinking about the time when rap still had enough novelty value that white bands tried it out in order to sound cool. That all went downhill with the growth of bombastic rap from the '90s through today — what could be cool about trying to ape a chest-pounding gorilla?
Back when rap was chill and didn't try to hog the national or global spotlight, it could mix well with mainstream white dance music, which during the disco era and into the '80s could not have been any more easy-going and any less self-serious.
Rather than compile an exhaustive list of songs where white people are rapping non-ironically on top of a disco beat, I thought I'd just share one that you might not have heard before. If you like "West End Girls" by Pet Shop Boys or "Rapture" by Blondie, you'll be groovin' along to this Euro synth-pop hit too, with its mix of Spanish, French, and English (sans any kind of lame multi-culti implications):
"Paris Latino" by Bandolero (1983)
I don't know why there hasn't been much in the other direction — black rappers bringing in synth-poppy sounds to their songs. You'd think rappers wouldn't have an aversion to disco, since rap is the gayest genre out there. Rev Run, the Fresh Prince, Puff Daddy, Kanye West — all on the downlow.
But disco isn't fashionable anymore, so I guess that rules it out of sight to the homosexual mind (it'th tho thirty-theven yearth agoooo!). How strange is it that the disco scene was memorialized by modest, hetero WASP Whit Stillman, who's also a fan of new wave and synth-pop from the '80s?
The modest, easy-going mood of the Seventies carried over into the early '80s, although the trend toward status-striving of the Me Generation would really take off during that decade and herald the arrival of more grandiose styles. But as late as '83 and '84, the mood was still easy-breezy and down-to-earth. Hard as it may be to believe, that meant that there was a time when rapping was fun and lively to listen to, especially when laid on top of a disco tune.
This is a good opportunity to comment on the essential difference between the black and gay and worlds. Violence is absolutely central to black life, while it's nowhere in gay life, which is why I appreciate gay men. They have too much political power, and they're snarky toward straight men, but they won't cave your head in. Rap is nothing more than a celebration of lawlessness, of blacks being completely liberated from civilized norms. This goal of the "civil rights" movement started to become reality after about 1988, which is why rap lost its pop connection around then.
ReplyDelete"Violence is absolutely central to black life, while it's nowhere in gay life,"
ReplyDeleteHomos are heavily and disproportionately represented in all sorts of dysfunction and deviancy. Including violence.
From https://web.archive.org/web/20050519075822/http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet6.html:
Homosexuality was linked to lowered health
– homosexuals were about twice as apt to report having had a sexually transmitted disease (STD); and over twice as apt to have had at least 2 STDs;
– homosexuals were about 5 times more apt to have tried to deliberately infect another with an STD;
– homosexuals were about a third more apt to report a traffic ticket or traffic accident in the past 5 years;
– homosexuals were 3 times as likely to have attempted suicide, 4 times more apt to have attempted to kill someone, and about twice as likely to have been involved in a physical fight in the past year;
– homosexuals were about 5 times more apt to have engaged in torture-related sex (sadomasochism, bondage); and
– homosexuals were about 4 times more likely to report having been raped.
Homosexuality was associated with criminality
– homosexuals were about twice as likely to have been arrested for a non-sexual crime and about 8 times more apt to have been arrested for a sexual crime;
– homosexuals were about twice as apt to have been convicted of a sexual crime and about twice as likely to have been jailed for a crime;
– homosexuals were about three times more likely to admit to having made an obscene phone call; and
– homosexuals were about 50% more apt to claim that they had recently shoplifted, cheated on their income tax, or not been caught for a crime.
Also read: Violence and Homosexuality
https://web.archive.org/web/20050519075822/http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet4.html
Now, you might think "that's just cherry picking a few weirdos there's plenty of straight weirdos too". Nice try, but when you adjust for how few gays there are they are for more likely to be degenerates.
From http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp:
"The study also found that only 0.9% of men and 0.4% of women reported having only same-sex partners since age 18—a figure that would represent a total of only 1.4 million Americans as homosexual (based on the last census report, showing roughly 292 million people living in America). The resulting accurate figures demonstrate that significantly less than one percent of the American population claims to be homosexual. The NHSLS results are similar to a survey conducted by the Minnesota Adolescent Health Survey (1986) of public school students. The survey showed that only 0.6% of the boys and 0.2% of the girls identified themselves as “mostly or 100% homosexual.”
There's been a decline in wildness since the mid 90's so it's become easier for people to buy into PC nonsense about "harmless" homos. During the Jeffrey Dahmer era there were so many horrors being perpetrated by fags and other perverts the general public wasn't as dangerously naive as they are now.
In 1980's TV and movies gay characters were virtually non existant. That poor fag, it's not like he knew the dangers of frequently seeking out strangers for butt sex and S&M. People were too wise and conscientious (and conservative!) in the 80's to fall for the pro homo propaganda.
We've become so enmeshed in our cocoons and have become so nihilistic since the 90's that we've developed a really ugly flippant attitude to the most degrading kinds of human perversion.
"Rap is nothing more than a celebration of lawlessness, of blacks being completely liberated from civilized norms. This goal of the "civil rights" movement started to become reality after about 1988, which is why rap lost its pop connection around then."
ReplyDeleteThe late 1980's is when the Modern West began to suffer from serious divisions not just between blacks and whites but also between different classes and also between men and woman.
I think this can be put down to extremely high levels of inequality. With so many people desperatey attempting to attain elite status there is so little integrity, loyalty, and good faith that relations corrode not only between social groups but also within social groups and indeed between any one person and another.
Trust levels peaked in '87 but quickly began eroding thereafter. We've become more paranoid and neurotic with fewer and weaker friendships and fewer marriages (which end in divorce more frequently). People were more upbeat and confident (but also more pragmatically aware) in the 70's/80's than they are now. That's why people snark on the 80's nowadays; things are so cynical now that we can't imagine a time when people were more pleasant, helpful and stable. Not like the selfish, aloof, mal adjusted weirdos we've turned into.
The growing rates of mental illness certainly explain the rising appeal of liberalism up to and including the encouragement of society's biggest psychopaths, gays.
Blackthought, from The Roots, was a customer of mine at a store I worked at in the 90s and he told me that Busta Rhymes was queer as a $3 bill
ReplyDelete@Feryl,
ReplyDeleteThat was a masterful job of sticking words in my mouth. Thanks.
Most rap is studio-produced, corporate-controlled image-managed work; it is usually written by the company's staff (who give ostensible liner credit to the rapper to give him credibility, but the royalties go to the company).
ReplyDeleteThe genius of rap is how the Big Record Labels managed to completely dominate the genre---unlike rock, which a band can thrive in despite never making a Big Record's Album.
I've written about this before, but, basically, the Gangsta Rap movement of the early 1990s was a deliberate (and successful) attempt by the Big Record Labels to squeeze out a nascent rap-touring option.
They did this by creating the idea of "street cred"----how a rapper was only "legitimate" if other rappers vouched for him. And, lo and behold, the only rappers who could vouch for you were rappers under contract with the labels.
The labels also developed the subsidiary system to hide this from the public. Create a "street" label ostensibly run by blacks, but really connected to a big studio, who really ran it. Hire a bunch of black professional queers---Milli Vanilli types and show biz hacks desperate for fame---and show them how to look and act the part of tough thugs. Voila! rap.
"I've written about this before, but, basically, the Gangsta Rap movement of the early 1990s was a deliberate (and successful) attempt by the Big Record Labels to squeeze out a nascent rap-touring option."
ReplyDeleteIn pop culture in general, there's been less and less authenticity/sincerity and more posturing since about the mid 80's. This fits into the rising levels of inequality/striving. Still, since people were very outgoing and creative in the 80's a lot of cool stuff was produced.
On the other hand, after people started cocooning around 1990 (while striving continued to grow) we started to see the manufacturing of lots of no talent camp/weird/vulgar pop sensations that would've been rejected in the 20's-80's because people were so well adjusted that they would've said "yuck" and turned off the TV or radio. There were much better things to enjoy anyway. In the 80's you did start to have admittedly camp acts like Culture Club have some hits but they did write and perform well done original songs.
It's telling that so many post 1990 'stars' were black and/or gay. Sure there were some lame pop acts in the 40's-early 60's but at least they were relatively wholesome and unpretentious since there was so little status striving in the mid century.
The mid century also is notable for it's disinterest in alien, foreign, subsversive elements. Mid century black acts had to be on their best behavior lest they alienate white audiences that didn't want their pride insulted (and didn't want their children corrupted) by uppity aggressive blacks. Or even drama queen whites.
ReplyDeletewhoresoftheinternet9:03 PM
"Most rap is studio-produced, corporate-controlled image-managed work; it is usually written by the company's staff"
Blacks are lazy, egocentric, stylish, shameless, and prone to dependency. They're not like whites who take a lot of pride in busting their asses doing things themselves and taking credit where it's due while being typically embarrassed to get fame/fortune for other's work. Meanwhile blacks, even the good for nothing ones, love to flaunt their ego and soak up the spotlight.
White artists/critics/fans place a great deal of importance on originality and self reliance, on not being a part of an assembly line. White artists esp. in the 70's/80's chafed at heavy handed producers and labels meddling with their music. Unfortunately these values take a hit in a "every man for himself" culture where the only thing that matters is getting to the top by any means necessary.
It's not surprising that the post 1990 get rich or die tryin nihilism would lead to so many black and gay stars who even in the most modest environment are often childish in their lazy narcissism. But at least they wouldn't be getting celebrated in a healthier culture.
This sort of integrity started to diminish a bit in the 80's as status striving grew. The Madonna's of the world made a fortune off of the toil of their minions. This sort of thing was rather unusual in the 20's-80's but it exploded in the 90's and thereafter.
I also think that rap in general, like anything else in black culture is going to be haphazard, volatile, and sloppy.
Whoops, that fragment at the end of my previous post was meant to be about how it took white (often very Jewish) corporations in order to be able to make sense out of rap culture which like any other part of black culture is highly chaotic and ephemeral.
ReplyDeleteNote that Jews, who were prominently involved in pushing Gangsta rap, generally shied away from such open subversion in the 20's-60's when Americans had enough self respect and common sense to keep those rats from getting too many ideas.
I do realize that in any time or place Jews are gonna be sticking their hands into forbidden places but such open hostility and perversion certainly was less common in the 20's-60's.
Hiphop producers at least used to love sampling funk and soul, not so much disco. I think that's the right choice. But apparently sampling has hit a downturn in hiphop over sparse synthesizers anyway.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if Whites place much emphasis on originality as such. They do tend to be the most pretentious and posturing group in any time period, probably by a good stretch. Blacks and Asians aren't known for hipsters or anything like SWPLism, whatever their other traits (whether they are particularly brazen, etc.). Much more crippling self awareness in Whites' tight ass honkey stuff.
Don't forget that rap was nothing more than copying white country music of the 1960s and 70s. That's right, rap is derived from those durn rednecks; listen to Charlie Daniel's superfast half-talking, half-singing hits of that period and you'll hear rap's beginnings. "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" is just a rap song with a fiddle. Daniels, in particular, could legitimately be called the Godfather of Rap.
ReplyDelete2. blacks were more desperate for fame at that point, as they had been squeezed out of pop music by whites. Only Michael Jackson could legitimately
"Blacks are lazy, egocentric, stylish, shameless, and prone to dependency. They're not like whites who take a lot of pride in busting their asses doing things themselves and taking credit where it's due while being typically embarrassed to get fame/fortune for other's work. Meanwhile blacks, even the good for nothing ones, love to flaunt their ego and soak up the spotlight."
ReplyDeleteHow familiar are you with the dynamic between scotts-irish/german Axl Rose and mulatto Slash from Guns N Roses? Axl was often a perfectionist to the point of absurd self-sabotage, the stories of which are well documented. Slash, on the other hand, was often a combination of apathetic and boastful, complaining that he just wanted to "rock." It's interesting, that if you read interviews with Slash, you'll see that he often reflexively spoke in a way suggesting that somehow he alone decided what was "lame" and what was "cool" in rock music. Slash always struck me as someone who loves the spotlight, and loves even more to deny that he does in order to maintain his "cred." Slash also often whined about Axl's "epics" from the Use Your Illusion albums. Pretentious they may be, and a basket case he may be, you cannot deny Axl's sincerity shone through.
Another surprising source of rap is the Grateful Dead. Look for drummer Mickey Hart's demo version of Fire on the Mountain, recorded in early 70s several years before the quite different full-band performances.
ReplyDeleteJazz is a form of black music (with European instruments and harmonies) that requires tremendous discipline and focus. For that reason and others it's never been terribly popular among blacks or whites.
ReplyDeleteI'm not that familiar with GnR dynamics but it's easy to figure out who does what (or who is gonna do what) just by looking at the race of those involved.
ReplyDeleteBlacks love the whole "big man" thing where a man can barely do a damn thing while still getting lot's of "respect" (e.g. get laid and get the hell outta my way). The woman are marginally more responsible and caring; after all back in Africa somebody had to do some work, right?
White people find this pathological narcissism appalling.
"I'm not sure if Whites place much emphasis on originality as such. They do tend to be the most pretentious and posturing group in any time period, probably by a good stretch. Blacks and Asians aren't known for hipsters or anything like SWPLism, whatever their other traits (whether they are particularly brazen, etc.). Much more crippling self awareness in Whites' tight ass honkey stuff."
Sure blacks are often amiable and at ease; they're so in the moment without regret for the past or concern for the future. That's why they are so damn terrible about being reliable, productive, caring etc. Without white society constantly prodding them in the right direction they don't give a shit about much. Let the good times roll.
BTW, Rap is an entire genre of music based on posturing. The more ghetto tastic elements of rap go all the way back to Africa. From day one black males were engaging in aggressive verbal combat in which the combatants don't test or otherwise prove their integrity, bravery or useful skill. Instead they just mindlessly talk shit; all style, no substance. No class or brains either.
Blacks love improv. because they are too lazy, unfocused, and disorganized to be bothered to remember and perform lots of stuff. James Brown was notoriously hard on his band since naturally, blacks have to be constantly reprimanded and threatened to stay on task.
Asians? They're extremely uptight. Nails that stick out get hammered down. They're humorless, taciturn. So they are very prone to being tense and fashionable/affected rather than joyful and sincere.
I guess if you're around dour nerdy whites (esp. anglo/scando/Slavic dull farmers) you might be more willing to bash whites and celebrate the other races.
I think that Ax's exile to the mental/social wilderness shows what the post '92 climate does to people esp. if they're close to the edge to begin with. Talented artists who did great stuff from the 70's-1991 or so lost it not just creatively but everywhere else. Kurt Cobain being the obvious tragedy. By In Utero it was evident that he was losing the fight, a fight that wasn't so tough in the fun 80's.
ReplyDeleteHell, I really think that mental illness (with all of the by products of it that you see nowadays) is more common. We can be in denial about it, ridicule others to make it seem like we don't have a problem but we really are messed up now.
"Blacks and Asians aren't known for hipsters or anything like SWPLism, whatever their other traits (whether they are particularly brazen, etc.). Much more crippling self awareness in Whites' tight ass honkey stuff."
ReplyDeleteHave you SEEN the glasses Asian millenials wear?
"I think that Ax's exile to the mental/social wilderness shows what the post '92 climate does to people esp. if they're close to the edge to begin with. Talented artists who did great stuff from the 70's-1991 or so lost it not just creatively but everywhere else. Kurt Cobain being the obvious tragedy. By In Utero it was evident that he was losing the fight, a fight that wasn't so tough in the fun 80's."
It seems that Cobain, while sharing German, Scottish and Irish ancestry with Axl, also had English, Dutch and French ancestry. This might explain why he was more of a stick in the mud, and despised Axl so much in the early 90's. The Cobain case is a sad one, but don't forget that while he was alive, for all the talk of him being a "sensitive artist," he was a pretty nasty, passive aggressive piece of work. Axl was at least transparent and in your face about his dysfunction. Unfortunately post-1992 culture saw Cobain's condition as being "profound," rather than tragic, like you recognize it as being.
"I guess if you're around dour nerdy whites (esp. anglo/scando/Slavic dull farmers) you might be more willing to bash whites and celebrate the other races."
I was around a Korean guy and Polish girl I'm friends with. The Korean guy was complaining that white people are "so racist," particularly in the context of southern whites. (The irony should be palpable, if you know anything about Korean culture) The polish girl was so quick to agree with him that I ready to throw up.
"The polish girl was so quick to agree with him that I ready to throw up."
ReplyDelete* I was ready to throw up.
Also, remaining with your thought Feryl, about blacks being more prone to instant gratification. Do you think that black female pop stars are more likely to become "divas," then white female singers? Think of Whitney Houston, who was initially sold as a "good girl," until her coke habits with Bobby Brown couldn't be hidden anymore, and the public was alienated from her. Also her character "Rachel," in The Bodyguard complains "I don't trust discipline. I know, at that crucial moment, I'd cop out." Of course, Houston was essentially playing herself in that movie.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, in this DVD review of "The Bodyguard," (http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/bodyguardse.php) the reviewer complains Houston's real life behavior tainted the movie for him. This was before Houston's death, FWIW.
Feryl: I guess if you're around dour nerdy whites (esp. anglo/scando/Slavic dull farmers) you might be more willing to bash whites and celebrate the other races.
ReplyDeleteReally? I'd think the dour Scots and staid, orderly alpine Swiss and so on like being that way. And wouldn't see any problem with it, so not from any kind of self dislike.
Speaking up for the other races I'd guess would have more to do with knowing them as people (if you're the kind of person who has some traits in common) and maybe some ethnic humility (too much or the right amount).
Asians? They're extremely uptight. Nails that stick out get hammered down.
Thais and Filipinos and seem pretty relaxed and gentle. Japanese perhaps not so much.
Nails that stick up getting hammered down may be why Asians lack pretensions. Can't really afford inflated delusions of grandeur and they'd get smacked down for them anyway.
While Africans seem to me to more commonly be straightforwardly egomaniacal, not really pretentious - there's no disguise to what they do, really, or pretense that they really, really "care about our community" or really really, sincerely want to make the best overly elaborate, manicured, self aware overblown perversion of a fundamentally straightforward, raw genre or anything.
Blacks love improv. because they are too lazy, unfocused, and disorganized to be bothered to remember and perform lots of stuff.
You could view the ability to be spontaneous that way I guess.
"Do you think that black female pop stars are more likely to become "divas," then white female singers?
ReplyDeleteBlacks in general are far more divaish. Their egos are so ginormous that it's always about them with no regard for others. If you look at a typical definition of psychopath it pretty much describes the norm in sub Saharan African behavior. Granted, proud warrior white ethnics can do a reasonable job of keeping blacks in line via a "no ifs, ands, or buts" code of honor which swiftly punishes transgressions.
Meanwhile the goody two shoes precious liberalism of the anglo/Scandinavian set is laughably crappy at restraining blacks (and dopey whites who egg blacks on) who immediately sense weakness and go in for the kill. When liberalism began running amok in the 60's northern black 'communities' turned into dystopian nightmares overnight. It wasn't as bad in the South because first of all, the crappiest blacks weren't welcome so many of them fled north before they got their heads caved in. Second of all, the remaining blacks decided to stay on relatively good behavior and hopefully not draw scots/Irish wrath.
So the north got the one two punch of blacks who were already predisposed to shiftless criminality being put in an environment of moral relativism and excuse making. Not good. The blacks of Minnesota/Wisconsin/Iowa are truly a blight and a menace with so few ass kicking whites around to send needed messages.
Personally I've lived in MN my whole life but for what it's worth, My mom's maternal heritage is South Carolina British extraction. Maybe that's why upper Midwest liberalism gets on my nerves and why I'm chafed by the racial non awareness of so many people 'round here.
"Blacks in general are far more divaish. Their egos are so ginormous that it's always about them with no regard for others. If you look at a typical definition of psychopath it pretty much describes the norm in sub Saharan African behavior."
ReplyDeleteIt seems that across the pond in the UK and France are getting a good dose of experience regarding this. Hopefully they'll reach their wit's end, soon enough.
"Meanwhile the goody two shoes precious liberalism of the anglo/Scandinavian set is laughably crappy at restraining blacks (and dopey whites who egg blacks on) who immediately sense weakness and go in for the kill."
No fair! Rudyard Kipling didn't write "The Beginnings" for nothing.
"Personally I've lived in MN my whole life[...]"
From the left coast, my deepest condolences. Try not to get attacked by some Somalian "refugee." What the heck do people do in that state for fun, anyways? It always seems so joyless. At least pacific northwest has nice scenery, and the Indiana/Ohio area has the "hillbilly" presence to "enrich" things.
"My mom's maternal heritage is South Carolina British extraction. Maybe that's why upper Midwest liberalism gets on my nerves and why I'm chafed by the racial non awareness of so many people 'round here."
My lineage is about 75% south England, and about 25% German/Austrian, so I can't imagine where I get it from. I feel like a "poseur," for lack of a better word, for identifying more with Celtic southrons, than with Anglos. Though, it still seems like southerners are all talk, to a certain extent.
Feryl Personally I've lived in MN my whole life but for what it's worth, My mom's maternal heritage is South Carolina British extraction.
ReplyDeleteIf you were really into this sort of thing, you could probably find where in the UK your British ancestors are out be getting your genome sequenced in a few years.
Most of the methods at the moment for people to check can't distinguish between the different strains of British ancestry, based SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) frequency statistics which tend to be about ancient similarities.
But when they look at haplotypes (blocks of linked SNPs) there's a fair amount of structure in Britain, genetically -
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/Royal%20Society%20exhibit%20Jul%202012d.pdf for a PDF on this.
Most of it apparently lines up to the remnants of ancient British kingdoms before Saxon expansion.
Isn't available for consumers at the moment, might be in some time.
If it does you could see if you fall with the Ulster Scots clusters. Their stereotype, to the extent they have one though, is being dour as fuck though Puritan Protestant Presbytarians, not really joyful. A bit like the Scots stereotype. Stereotypically - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsFtiruIok or https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110615181554AAsnASD ("The stereotype of Northern Protestants (who are more likely to be Presbyterian than Anglican, by the way) is that they are fairly sober, quiet, diligent, even joyless", although the answerer doesn't seem to think there's much to stereotypes).
Not sure about Black crime rate differences in the USA - I think the main difference is between places where they're very urbanised and so have higher crime rates vs where they are rural, not really between Southern cities and Northern cities, for ex, although there maybe is a certain bleedover from urban Black crime into the country in parts where they are mainly living in cities.
There are some samples on the GSS for Blacks in different regions - http://i.imgur.com/qeb1GV0.png skintone, http://imgur.com/yH8ROGF (wordsum), and http://i.imgur.com/7fRHatQ.png whether ever locked up, http://i.imgur.com/FcVG40r.png and whether ever arrested, not much sample size though. Differences here don't seem great main one obviously that Northern Blacks are smarter measured via better vocab and education, as is also the case for Whites.
Also a the question for Whites on whether they've ever been hit, either in a fight or were beaten either as an adult or as a child - http://i.imgur.com/mQswYhD.png and this is whether that happened as a child or adult http://i.imgur.com/P1sAom3.png, might be a proxy for wildness (others could be drinking rates, smoking, sex partners, which are also all on the GSS?).
@whoresoftheinternet
ReplyDeleteYour solipsistic, evidence-free theorizing is false in every level.
1. Most rappers either own their own record labels or signed to that of another rapper. I can list endless examples if you want. Compared to other popular genres rap is actually the LEAST controlled by the companies.
2. Your conspiracy theory about Gangsta Rap is flawed on all points because
a. Most Gangsta rappers had no major label nor mainstream support at all. It was your MC Hammer/Vanilla Ice types that got the most commercial support.
b. The genre itself goes was created to the mid 80's by underground rapper Schooly D.
c. All rappers rely on nascent touring to gain support, mainstream or underground.
3. Street cred is not about having other rappers give you a shout out, Its about actually coming from the ghetto.
4. All ghostwriting in rap/hiphop is done by other rappers, not corporations (where the hell did you get that nonsense from?).
5. The earliest rap/hiphop records were largely based on Caribbean club music in NYC. Where the hell did you come up with the Country Music connection without evidence.
6. Most rappers with the thug image already had that image before getting signed to a record label. Its politically correct nonsense to believe rappers are "forced/taught" to have that image.
@whoresoftheinternet
ReplyDeleteAlso, it is extremely easy for rap/hiphop fans to tell if a song was ghostwritten or not by the style of the lyrics. Rappers that don't make their own lyrics are immediately dismissed by fans and other rappers.