tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post5800902377482510726..comments2024-03-27T23:28:20.274-04:00Comments on Face to Face: Are women funny?agnostichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-6980419041928159082008-07-18T14:10:00.000-04:002008-07-18T14:10:00.000-04:00Men are more likely to THINK they're funny-and thu...Men are more likely to THINK they're funny-and thus pursue a career in it--they think being funny is some sort of pissing competition and women are funny just for the joy of it.<BR/><BR/>REAL funny people are too insecure to think they could actually make a living off of their goofiness. they reserve the best of their humor for their friends and family. Few stand up "comediens" make me laugh out right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-41961360773525192942008-05-26T14:25:00.000-04:002008-05-26T14:25:00.000-04:00"something you'd know if you spent a day in the ba..."something you'd know if you spent a day in the bars and clubs working the floor and confronting hundreds of female personalities."<BR/><BR/>Look, Roissy, it's inevitable that in bars, in which attractive women (I assume you only make advances to attractive women) are trying to "s***-test" the men who approach them, you're more likely to encounter women's sarcasm than any other form of humour. <BR/><BR/>Dating bars are an odd place because on the one hand, their whole purpose is to enable sexual encounters, so that women who frequent them must be careful not to be funny in the wrong way for fear of scaring off potential suitors. On the other hand, the prettiest women in bars are bound to have a "show me" attitude towards the men who approach them, one that expresses itself in sarcasm. <BR/><BR/>But in other societies - those in which women were expected not only to organize social events, but to provide much of the entertainment - women were expected to be funny and their wit usually added much to their appeal as hostesses. Even today, traces of this kind of female wit can be found, although I think it's less common today than at any other period of history. <BR/><BR/>Still, I maintain that women, even today, are funnier in single-sex gatherings than they allow themselves to be at any event at which men are present. The fact that you've gone out with groups of women who did not joke in your presence doesn't prove much. Have you not heard of the "observer effect"? <BR/><BR/>ClioAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-12808169347332506442008-05-25T23:36:00.000-04:002008-05-25T23:36:00.000-04:00Good point about cooks. It also shows why humor is...Good point about cooks. It also shows why humor is not of this type. When you watch cooking shows on TV, they are mostly by women, although the superstars are mostly men. When you look at what percent of cooking blogs are female, it's a majority (around 70% iirc). And everyone just says that women are better cooks or like cooking more.<BR/><BR/>None of these is true for humor.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-70604104755392845642008-05-25T22:54:00.000-04:002008-05-25T22:54:00.000-04:00At the same time, are you saying that the fraction...<I>At the same time, are you saying that the fraction of females at the professional level (and even at the hobby level -- see the addendum) is completely *uncorrelated* with their fraction out there in the mists of society? Or that it is perhaps *inversely* correlated? I just want you to hear how ridiculous that idea is.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>I agree with you about humor, but I can think of one field in which "the fraction of females at the professional level (and even at the hobby level -- see the addendum) is completely *uncorrelated* with their fraction out there in the mists of society" and that is cooking. Aren't there many more professional male chefs than there are female chefs? But women as a whole are much more interested in cooking and much better at cooking than men as a whole.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-83558966705953880612008-05-23T17:28:00.000-04:002008-05-23T17:28:00.000-04:00christ, women themselves tell me most women aren't...<I>christ, women themselves tell me most women aren't funny!</I><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.sheckymagazine.com/bonnie.htm" REL="nofollow">A female comedian agrees</A>agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-2801872012457826422008-05-23T16:42:00.000-04:002008-05-23T16:42:00.000-04:00clio, you must swim in some very exclusive waters ...clio, you must swim in some very exclusive waters of female friends who know how to wrest a chuckle, or your sense of humor is warped enough to misjudge the unfunny as funny. for the record, it's *women* who, when they are trying to be funny, most often resort to the cheap and easy thrills of sarcasm, something you'd know if you spent a day in the bars and clubs working the floor and confronting hundreds of female personalities. men's humor runs the gamut of types and is frequently far more subtle, dry and ironic than women's.<BR/><BR/>i can't believe the universal fact that women are unfunny is even a point of contention. christ, women themselves tell me most women aren't funny! the rare women that are funny are disproportionately lesbian.<BR/><BR/>i was at an improv comedy show a couple nights ago -- the three acts? all men. the audience? half women, half men. who was laughing the hardest? the women. how would i describe the humor style of the comedians? definitely not sarcastic.<BR/><BR/><I>So there is a supply/demand element to this. Men have a lot more to lose socially than women from not attempting to be funny. So even if men and women had equal natural ability for humor, the incentives would mean men are more likely to develop their abilities into skills over time</I><BR/><BR/>women like to laugh no matter who it is coming from, male or female, and regardless of the context in which the humor is delivered. so you'd expect to see women honing their funny bones amongst their female friends in the same way men are funny when in the company of their male friends. this practice would bleed over into their interactions with men such that the humor disparity would not be so wide. but it is. and if you've ever gone out with a large group of girls as the only male friend in attendance (and no boyfriends around) you know that women aren't "keeping the humor to themselves" to spare the guy's feelings. women, with or without men around, are singularly unfunny. <BR/><BR/>if i were a betting man i'd not hesitate to bet on the hypothesis that women are lacking whatever brain structure is necessary to produce humor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-2265380894594315792008-05-23T15:28:00.000-04:002008-05-23T15:28:00.000-04:00Compare the above case to female demand for romanc...Compare the above case to female demand for romance and "gossipy career woman" novels, and the female reservoir capable of supplying this demand.<BR/><BR/>Here, it's uncontroversial that men have no demand for such stuff, so all the demand must come from females. Also uncontroversial that males have little interest as suppliers of this stuff either.<BR/><BR/>But female writers are happy to produce this stuff, and the supply rises to meet the demand -- the dynamic unfolds entirely within the female population, showing that lack of interest from males as demanders or suppliers is irrelevant.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-53616696821969676332008-05-23T15:16:00.000-04:002008-05-23T15:16:00.000-04:00If there is a reservoir of female wry wit, it is a...If there is a reservoir of female wry wit, it is a very well kept secret.<BR/><BR/>Again, think supply and demand. You say there's little male demand for female wit -- maybe. Let's say it's true. But what about the demand for female wit from *the other half* of the population?<BR/><BR/>At the risk of tedium, but to ensure clarity, here is the proof:<BR/><BR/>If:<BR/><BR/>1) There is an appreciable female demand for female wit,<BR/><BR/>And<BR/><BR/>2) There is a reservoir of female wit capable of supplying this demand,<BR/><BR/>Then:<BR/><BR/>3) There will be an outpouring of female wit (to meet the demand).<BR/><BR/>Now, all the data show that 3 is false. I'm looking at data from the blogosphere now, and it looks the same. And you've already admitted this, and have been talking instead about *why* there is no such outpouring.<BR/><BR/>That means that the premise, 1 and 2, is false, which implies that either 1 or 2 or both are false.<BR/><BR/>You've already said the demand from females is there, i.e. that females have a greater sense of humor than males, at least regarding the drier rather than raunchier forms of humor, and crave this. So 1 cannot be false. That only leaves 2 being false.<BR/><BR/>Conclusion: while not non-existent, there is no deep, untapped reservoir of female wit. QED.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-59066838475675231622008-05-23T07:40:00.000-04:002008-05-23T07:40:00.000-04:00There's always the possibility that a non-witty ma...There's always the possibility that a non-witty man might lose respect if he kept "dropping the ball" in conversation with a witty woman. But even a man who can hold his own in that game may decide he prefers not to have to work so hard. Men like Agnostic, who say repeatedly that they glory in young women's sweetness and silliness, might just find that wit was too sharp a quality to seem truly feminine to them. <BR/><BR/>That's one of the reasons that women are liable to keep their humour for use among themselves. <BR/><BR/>ClioAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-39607492511707822112008-05-22T19:01:00.000-04:002008-05-22T19:01:00.000-04:00Alias Clio said:I'd add that I still believe that ...Alias Clio said:<BR/><I>I'd add that I still believe that a sharp wit can actually be a liability for women</I><BR/><BR/>I definitely find this plausible. I think one example is that it limits the pool of men they find attractive: I suspect that witty women are most likely to be attracted to men at least as witty as they are.<BR/><BR/>Of course, there are just some men who don't want wittier women. While it might seem easy to look down on those men, their preferences might actually serve them well if indeed witty women tend to have less respect or attraction for less witty men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-39362278839499604162008-05-22T17:54:00.000-04:002008-05-22T17:54:00.000-04:00I think for this, it'd be good to compare British ...I think for this, it'd be good to compare British humor (think PBS shows with Judi Dench) with American humor. The wry and dry wit of women's humor can be compared to the British, while the "wtf that is ridiculously clever" American humor can be seen as more usual for a guy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-16121546477373641592008-05-22T15:53:00.000-04:002008-05-22T15:53:00.000-04:00Now, Mr Malloy, that's more like it. The kind of s...Now, Mr Malloy, that's more like it. The kind of science that is actually useful for the kind of generalizations I need to be convinced. And it makes sense. <BR/><BR/>A long way from Agnostic's original claim that girls are only funny unintentionally - even allowing for a broad interpretation of "only". <BR/><BR/>I'd add that I still believe that a sharp wit can actually be a liability for women, for reasons I'll explain in more detail (than in my previous comments) on my blog as soon as I'm able to access it again.<BR/><BR/>ClioAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-788961799700920352008-05-22T02:34:00.000-04:002008-05-22T02:34:00.000-04:00Geoffrey Miller had an interesting paper about the...Geoffrey Miller had an <A HREF="http://www.unm.edu/~gfmiller/new_papers3/kaufman%20inpress%20creativity.doc" REL="nofollow">interesting paper</A> about the role of humor in sexual selection.<BR/><BR/>Women, interestingly enough, are greater humor <I>appreciators</I> than men. Females laugh more than men and this difference begins early. The reward centers of female brains are more stimulated by humor, and females process humor more deeply and are quicker to discern and reject bad humor...<BR/><BR/><I>"Thus, males show higher mating intelligence in the sense of humor production ability, but females may show higher mating intelligence in the sense of humor appreciation ability – as the fitness indicator theory of humor would suggest."</I> <BR/><BR/>Women are much more likely to require humor in dating partners, and the amount of female laughter in conversations between men and women in is a good predictor of dating interest.<BR/><BR/>So there is a supply/demand element to this. Men have a lot more to lose socially than women from not attempting to be funny. So even if men and women had equal natural ability for humor, the incentives would mean men are more likely to develop their abilities into skills over time (a comparison could be made for bilingualism between Americans, Europeans, and Africans).<BR/><BR/>But the variance of male/female ability in intelligence and creativity alone suggests a large difference should exist at the tails, which is what we see.Jason Malloyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04855482153162314172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-3087190935250302132008-05-22T01:05:00.000-04:002008-05-22T01:05:00.000-04:00The number of male professional humorists has noth...<I>The number of male professional humorists <B>has nothing to do</B> with whether or not women have a sense of humour</I> [my emphasis]<BR/><BR/>Well, let's stick to whether women are funny, not whether they have a sense of humor (they do, obviously).<BR/><BR/>It's clear that the gory, on-the-ground details are not 100% correlated with the observable big picture that we can get data about.<BR/><BR/>At the same time, are you saying that the fraction of females at the professional level (and even at the hobby level -- see the addendum) is completely *uncorrelated* with their fraction out there in the mists of society? Or that it is perhaps *inversely* correlated? I just want you to hear how ridiculous that idea is.<BR/><BR/>Again, take anything that females are skilled at and like doing: nursing, teaching, social work, anything involving psychology, etc. We can count the fraction of women in professional organizations for these fields, and they will be majority-female.<BR/><BR/>That is because the distributions of female talents and preferences percolate up into the big, observable picture. In the same way, we infer that Ashkenazi Jewish people are funnier than Chinese people -- and the argument that Chinese people are funnier in person (says someone) is just as silly.<BR/><BR/>If the lack of visible female funny people were due to men (overtly, as in calling her bitchy, or insidiously, as in her not wanting to frighten him), then what about all those women who would appreciate the female's funny-ness? They're half the population and love being entertained -- and probably would identify with what the female funnyperson was saying.<BR/><BR/>Apparently, there is little *female* demand for female funny-ness -- they too find guys to be funnier.<BR/><BR/>And, sorry, but men are not "frightened" by funny women -- when we find one, we think "holy shit, she's a keeper!" If people at Roissy's site were afraid of funny women, why would we read blogs like yours, Lemmonex's, Irina in New York's, and so on?<BR/><BR/>This canard shows up anytime that group X is ignored by group Y: group X claims that Y is afraid of X. Men are "intimidated" by tall women, "afraid" of women with three professional degrees, etc. It's like a short guy saying women are too weak to handle dating a shortie. C'mon...agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-6175107314554766552008-05-22T00:50:00.000-04:002008-05-22T00:50:00.000-04:00Just added some data on YouTube's 100 most subscri...Just added some data on YouTube's 100 most subscribed "comedian" channels. There are 5 that are exclusively female, and 4 that are split between male and female, so that's 7. One I couldn't tell (cartoons), so at most 8.<BR/><BR/>This is relevant because it shows that even at the amateur level -- that is a generous appellation -- where anyone who has a modicum of skill and wants to can do it, we still find females a bit under 10%.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-82879279112205502492008-05-22T00:09:00.000-04:002008-05-22T00:09:00.000-04:00Piffle, I say again. The number of male professio...Piffle, I say again. The number of male professional humorists has nothing to do with whether or not women have a sense of humour, whether you see that as consisting exclusively of the ability to make jokes about life, or the ability to laugh at jokes about life. (Women must have a little of the latter, or humour would not "help guys get laid".) <BR/><BR/>Once again (as on Roissy's site) I say that we began this conversation discussing the sexes' ability to deploy humour in personal encounters - and women have as much of that as men do. The drive to become a professional humorist - or even to be the class clown - is something quite different. Women are indeed much less likely to be professional jokesters, not merely because they "choose not to", in the classic feminist formula, but because it would be a positive liability for them to do so. <BR/><BR/>The fact is that men are often frightened by funny women and often read female funniness as bitchiness, even when it isn't any nastier in tone or content than that of men. You'll notice that the comments at Roissy's website go on and on about how bitchy female humour is, a rather absurd observation given how nasty some of the humour there can get. I'm not denying that Roissy is often very funny; I'm just saying there's something odd about men who complain that women's humour is bitchy but enjoy Roissy's frequent meanness towards women. <BR/><BR/>ClioAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-50325153434852423692008-05-21T22:29:00.000-04:002008-05-21T22:29:00.000-04:00Pure sexual selection. Humor helps guys get laid. ...Pure sexual selection. Humor helps guys get laid. Humor does not help women to get a guy to commit.Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06585635503423590842noreply@blogger.com