tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post5644072821116520140..comments2024-03-29T11:47:06.499-04:00Comments on Face to Face: Shame and forgiveness in pop music hits from 1986agnostichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-33747199954065673952014-03-04T07:55:07.685-05:002014-03-04T07:55:07.685-05:00Used to think "Papa don't preach" wa...Used to think "Papa don't preach" was Madonna's cynical triangulation attempt to appeal to the largest common denominator and thus become a superstar by being somewhat controversial but not too controversial in a PG-13 way. <br />It's like how that girl got addicted to caffeine pills in "Save by the bell", since real drugs would have been too edgy for that show.outsiderhttp://jack-arcalon.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-12403136300009136562014-03-03T18:55:36.235-05:002014-03-03T18:55:36.235-05:00I concur with agnostic that he is the dissenter wi...I concur with agnostic that he is the dissenter with regard to punk, but I do think because of other aspects its musicality is often overlooked in discussions of it.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-17563356615333673502014-03-03T04:14:18.749-05:002014-03-03T04:14:18.749-05:00I mean, expanding on the above, I'm a person w...I mean, expanding on the above, I'm a person who doesn't have very much in the way of strong social connections (trying to fix a lot of this).<br /><br />But I've never been harsh or unforgiving, or described as such by anyone else (light on enthusiasm and spontaneity, yes).<br /><br />I forgive people or not depending on whether they appear to be sincere and how harmful what they did wrong was (usually in a fairly slow paced, non-spontaneous way after a bit of thought).<br /><br />And then separately afterwards, I just don't spend that much time with them, usually.<br /><br />This whole schema where people try to avoid forgiving others in order to keep them distant, it might happen sometimes, but it seems quite bizarre as an extreme set of lengths to go to, when people have complete discretion how socially engaged they are with others.<br /><br />I can see someone who is concerned with cultivating an extremely sociable exterior for public consumption to engage in this kind of weird workaround ("It's not like I'm, like, a sperg or anything, he's just a jerk!"), but most low sociability people seem likely to just forgive or not, and then not spend much time with people.Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-30467584232100005222014-03-03T03:54:14.910-05:002014-03-03T03:54:14.910-05:00People are much less promiscuous today, and much l...People are much less promiscuous today, and much less impulsive, like you've documented, so it's hard to enter into that mindset of having promiscuous sex on a whim, I think.<br /><br />"Slutty" girls are more outliers.<br /><br />That would make songs about women who've made mistakes and want to seek forgiveness rare - its not an experience girls have very much, or which anyone in their social network would have.<br /><br />I'm not sure why that would lead to songs about not needing to have any shame to become popular, although I could see that being due to the post 70s increases in status signalling and impression management, people not admitting any fault due to that.<br /><br /><i>Only an egocentric shut-in is stingy with forgiveness, which keeps others at a comfortable distance.</i><br /><br />No offence, but you seem to see sociability as strongly linked to every positive, halfway desirable trait, i.e. almost every positive trait we have is learnt or brought out by sociability and no negative traits are. It just seems like such an odd worldview, as nearly no one else seems to see sociable people in this light. Like if humans ever do anything worthwhile, it's as a kind of expression of sociability and extroversion and the desire to connect with others.<br /><br />For instance on forgiveness, I don't think any of the research into it has ever found population variance on the trait or history of forgiving behavior that varies with social network size, self rated forgiveness, number of outgoing behaviors, etc, such that more sociable people tend to be more forgiving or shyer people are less forgiving. I could see more sociable people as less forgiving - they're socially confident and can more afford to burn their bridges, etc.Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-38792735688607637022014-03-03T03:16:25.587-05:002014-03-03T03:16:25.587-05:00"Dissent" -- get real. If anything mine ..."Dissent" -- get real. If anything mine is the dissenting view about what punk was as a movement and style, and how I respond to it. Rock critics love punk, mindlessly talk about it as a "return to early rock, over-turning the overwrought prog rock," etc.<br /><br />I dig the Clash in a way that I don't the other punk bands, and explained clearly what traits of their music I'm responding to.<br /><br />TGGP was continuing a debate about the musicality of punk, which I continued in return. I didn't take aim at anyone's tastes -- I could care less what people like. It was a substantive argument about how musically rich punk was or was not.<br /><br />I take way more crap for liking dance music and dancing, where people are taking aim at the preference itself rather than anything substantial I said. But I'm used to that. "Yeah well, y'know, that's just, like... your opinion, man."agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-76146369066547002642014-03-03T00:13:36.644-05:002014-03-03T00:13:36.644-05:00It's weird how intolerant you are of commenter...It's weird how intolerant you are of commenters who voice even modest quibbles with your posts. My God - someone finds early Punk lyrical. That clearly requires multiple rebuttals on your part.<br /><br />You seem as intolerant of dissent as cocoon-era PC-obsessed liberals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-5613531880179270072014-03-02T19:13:06.486-05:002014-03-02T19:13:06.486-05:00How odd were the Clash in the grand scheme of punk...How odd were the Clash in the grand scheme of punk? Four of their singles made the *dance* charts in America: "Train in Vain" (#30), "The Magnificent Seven" (#21), "This Is Radio Clash" (#17), and "Rock the Casbah" (#8).<br /><br />They were also unique in paying attention to, enjoying, and incorporating black music into their own, mostly reggae but also funk, rap, and ska (a black-and-white movement). That's why there's a strong beat in their music, and why they were popular on the dance floor.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-37370369173356214362014-03-02T18:38:37.463-05:002014-03-02T18:38:37.463-05:00Early punk at least had simple riffs, but that'...Early punk at least had simple riffs, but that's about it. Little harmony, no solos or musicianship generally, no singing ability, no richness of instrumentation, and simple phrasing / structure.<br /><br />The official story goes that this was a reaction to the overwrought prog rock of the '70s, of disco, of etc., and punk was returning rock to its roots. Well, except the early rock singers could, y'know, sing. And write bass lines. And sing in harmony.<br /><br />The Clash are the only big punk band that sounded musical. There's an attempt to hit different notes and convey different emotions in the singing. The bass is asserting itself melodically. Good guitar playing. And they have a richer structure that guides you through different phases -- usually an intro, verse / chorus, some kind of interlude, and then a winding down.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-55111814557763459042014-03-02T17:26:57.252-05:002014-03-02T17:26:57.252-05:00I think you're giving short-shrift to the musi...I think you're giving short-shrift to the musicality of early punk. Latter era hardcore could sometimes seem to consist of nothing but aggression (like its extreme metal contemporaries), but both "Anarchy in the UK" (admittedly not as good as "God Save the Queen") and "Bad Reputation" (which now brings to mind "<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKydpOG4uu0" rel="nofollow">Don't Dictate</a>", similarly anti-social?) are catchy tunes.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-31668409625544200212014-03-02T14:09:41.018-05:002014-03-02T14:09:41.018-05:00Punk was supposed to build a scene and glue a grou...Punk was supposed to build a scene and glue a group of peers together. You can build a scene around a birth cohort, around being out of work and disenfranchised, or around any other shared trait that brings people together to rebel *as a group*.<br /><br />Being a slut is fundamentally an individual and egocentric thing. In high school or college, it's not like there's a cohesive clique of "the sluts" -- they're dispersed throughout various cliques, or stand apart from any clique (not wanting to join, or having been ostracized).<br /><br />Contrast that with the psychos, the badasses, the burn-outs, etc. Their behavior as a group can often be anti-social, but they still form a cohesive group, like a band of thieves. Sluts do not even cohere at the "band of thieves" level.<br /><br />Hence, Joan Jett screaming about not giving a damn what anybody thinks is off-putting and annoying. It's not "I don't care what some enemy group thinks," it's "I don't give a damn what any of you think -- if you like me, good for you, if not, fuck off." It's shouting about how she doesn't want to belong to any group, and that forming a scene would cramp her style.<br /><br />Well, grow up and let us know when you graduate from kindergarten, bratty little dork.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-16737054524569455942014-03-02T13:58:45.408-05:002014-03-02T13:58:45.408-05:00Punk doesn't offer anything musically, it'...Punk doesn't offer anything musically, it's music for people who don't respond to music. It's all about energy and attitude. So it boils down to: what is all the energy and attitude being directed toward, perhaps nothing in particular?<br /><br />In "Bad Reputation," it's just raging against the community who's trying to make her act less shamefully. Hard to identify with that unless you're a bratty slut yourself, and hard to get on board if you're not. The punk spirit is supposed to be about young vs. old, citizens vs. the government, fun-lovers vs. killjoys, etc. It's not supposed to be anti-social, though there are songs like that ("Bad Reputation," "Anarchy in the UK," etc., which generally stink).agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-77080822150919694132014-03-01T19:30:32.991-05:002014-03-01T19:30:32.991-05:00"Bad Reputation" is by far the best Joan..."Bad Reputation" is by far the best Joan Jett song. Never thought of it as being in the vein of anything by Pink or whatnot, but I tend to categorize music based on sound rather than lyrics, and it sounds more like the Ramones. In a similar vein, I've been repeatedly listening to "Oh the Joy" recently, whose lyrics are all in the title, because it sounds like the Distillers. I skip past the more lyrical "Meet the Foetus" part of the song because it sounds like Spinnerette, and who needs that.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1924086543271073922014-03-01T16:47:25.971-05:002014-03-01T16:47:25.971-05:00Me again. During the 1970's, there were hits ...Me again. During the 1970's, there were hits about wishing one could cheat because they had met the right one, but were already spoken for. "It's Sad To Belong" by England Dan and John Ford Coley and "Where Were You When We Were Falling In Love" by Lobo come to mind. Another from the 70's was "Let Her Cry", in which a man secretly in love with an abused wife and standing by helplessly as her husband destroys her due to the sanctity of marriage. They despair over their fates but don't break anyone up in spite of bad circumstances.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-55257516966833934912014-03-01T16:42:50.962-05:002014-03-01T16:42:50.962-05:00When I first heard "I Didn't Mean To Turn...When I first heard "I Didn't Mean To Turn You On," by Robert Palmer, I thought it sounded familiar. It was a cover of a minor hit by the group Sherelle a few years back. It was an odd choice for Palmer, as he struggled to hit the lower notes.Mikenoreply@blogger.com