tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post2752367939536485070..comments2024-03-28T21:56:51.675-04:00Comments on Face to Face: The social mood toward cops -- informal vs. deferentialagnostichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-87881253883446311622013-07-16T13:07:29.521-04:002013-07-16T13:07:29.521-04:00This is cool!This is cool!Valariehttp://themeatgrinders.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-72979699247982471162013-04-17T09:43:02.306-04:002013-04-17T09:43:02.306-04:00"
"Remember that the variable most respo..."<br />"Remember that the variable most responsible for clearance rates in a police department is interviewing witnesses, not CSI wizardry.""<br /><br />This is worth its own article - about how people have so many false perceptions about how technology will improve their lives.<br /><br />-CurtisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-7026147984587361822013-04-16T16:32:29.673-04:002013-04-16T16:32:29.673-04:00"Only during a falling-crime period do they t...<b>"Only during a falling-crime period do they try to distance themselves from civilians and act in a more power-tripping way. Most people have become more socially avoidant, and see law enforcement officers more as demi-gods, saints, and forensic wizards, so they don't really feel like approaching or getting along with the cops face-to-face in the first place."</b><br /><br />Although I have less then ten years on a major metropolitan police department, it seems pretty apparent that we socially self-segregate for two major reasons:<br /><br />1) The feeling of being under siege professionally. Everything we do can be recorded, choppped up, put out of context and edited and end up on the 6 p.m. news. Civilian oversight bureaucrats who have never conducted a criminal investigation, or had to engage in a use of force second guess are second guessing ever thing we do when a complaint comes in. Logically we distance ourselves to protect our paycheck. When you feel like you're a target, you stick with your 'own'.<br /><br />2) People are increasingly disconnected from each other (i.e. Bowling Alone) and civil society is dissolving. It's hard to find other people, outside of vets, who can emphasize with our experiences. Gallows humor and dark talk abound when you know a cop, which make it hard sometimes to have a normal conversation/relationship. <br /><br /><b>"Notice also how casually the cops are dressed in the good old days. They've got shorts, a ringer t-shirt, jogging shoes and socks, and ball caps. Their sunglasses are the semi-transparent type, and not always worn."</b><br /><br />Unfortunately its hard to look casual wearing kevlar and carrying a gun, magazines, baton, handcuffs, radio, OC, etc.<br /><br /><b>"Now their colors are uniform, and uniformly dark. Yeah, we get it: ALL DARK = INTIMIDATING."</b><br /><br />True. Departments have gone towards darker colors for intimidation. I like dark colors because ALL DARK = Less Laundry, dry cleaning, and uniform upkeep. When I was in patrol, I hated our powder blue shirts. They got dirty easily and they were made of terribly uncomfortable material considering the climate I work in.<br /><br /><b>". The formerly bare shirt-sleeves are now emblazoned with two large markings, while "POLICE" takes up a good quarter of their backs. And now the sunglasses are the 100% reflective type, worn almost always."</b><br /><br />You also have to factor in the 'risk management'/legal side of things. Wearing prominent markings eliminates the claim of not knowing the guy in a uniform you assaulted was a cop. Additionally, prominent markings also separate us from private security, which has heavily proliferated in the past few decades.<br /><br /><b>"Remember that the variable most responsible for clearance rates in a police department is interviewing witnesses, not CSI wizardry."</b><br /><br />Unfortunately the public doesn't know that. People in the investigatory side like me have to contend against the "CSI Effect". Additionally, poor past practices with photo IDs and ID procedures is killing us in court when felony cases with eyewitnesses and no forensic or video evidence are available. Misdemeanor bench trials are a bit better for us when we don't have forensic evidence.<br /><br /><b>It is the quality of the interactions between the police and civilians that makes a difference. They have to be given a fair amount of leeway to fuck up the dangerous ones out there, while being encouraged to mix with the rest of us as though we weren't coming from two separate worlds.</b><br /><br />We're never going to go back to that with the pervasive presence of video, flip phones, civilian complaint authorities, etc.. There are plenty of times where I could have solved neighborhood crime problems with an ass kicking, but instead had to wait around and lock someone up on petty crimes (marijuana possession, open containers, urinating, tresspass, etc.) to make my point. The times I kicked someone's ass in front of their associates made the point far faster and got better results.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-25163756916975754362013-04-16T10:12:01.724-04:002013-04-16T10:12:01.724-04:00The cops looked so much better back then. Now it ...The cops looked so much better back then. Now it seems like they just want to be more intimidating. I've also read articles about how steroid usage amongst cops is a growing issue.FWGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-48465213232409935902013-04-16T00:02:43.979-04:002013-04-16T00:02:43.979-04:00I think I've heard of that patrol car experime...I think I've heard of that patrol car experiment, used to argue in favor of more foot patrols. Tabarrok has a <a href="http://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/TerrorAlertProofs.pdf" rel="nofollow">paper</a> with a natural experiment indicating police effectiveness for that.<br /><br />I thought Hot Fuzz was very funny, though I don't imagine it was a big hit in the U.S. I thought Super Troopers was very successful though, and Reno 911 seems like it was on for a pretty long time.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-62394644701662501462013-04-15T15:17:10.988-04:002013-04-15T15:17:10.988-04:00Long ago when I was young I used to believe that t...Long ago when I was young I used to believe that the police were the "good guys" as I've gotten older and seen the corruption, mis-use of power, and everything else I am MUCH harder. I was on a Jury not that long ago, and as I told the other jurors. "I know the defendent is lying. I also know that the police are lying, probably planted the evidence, and have everything on their side to get away with it. What I haven't seen is a disinterested witness to tell me the truth. So as of right now, I am Not Guilty across the board till I see something that says otherwise." <br /><br />The defendant - who was probably guilty - walked. Why? Because I do not trust the police - I see them as worse then the criminals since they are used to getting away with it. They are by far worse than the disease. From my perspective, cops are a waste of money and a major criminal organization able to do what it wants, kill with impunity, and get away with it. <br /><br />Yes, age and perspective tends to open your eyes. Truth Hurtsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-70955650012837593162013-04-15T15:15:10.788-04:002013-04-15T15:15:10.788-04:00I should add that all this could be applied to the...I should add that all this could be applied to the case of people in the armed forces vs. civilians. But that would be a whole 'nother post.<br /><br />Military do seem more stand-off-ish, haughty, and eager to mark themselves apart than in the '80s. I don't remember going to an airport back then and seeing all kinds of guys dressed in army fatigues like you do now.<br /><br />They were regular guys who just happened to have more of a desire to kick enemy ass than the rest of us. Not latch onto the military for a steady paycheck and free laser eye surgery.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-51632521987200256702013-04-15T15:10:29.283-04:002013-04-15T15:10:29.283-04:00"cops in falling crime periods would spend mo..."cops in falling crime periods would spend more time investigating burglaries and the like, and crimes that don't have that sociable element."<br /><br />I don't know, they have to interview witnesses, persons of interest, pawn shops where the stolen stuff might be fenced, etc. They still need to be able to tell whether someone's lying or not, etc.<br /><br />"Plus, cops might be more motivated by money rather than protecting the people ... insert 80s cop movie dialogue about why copdude "joined the force" "<br /><br />They do seem more like mercenaries these days, don't they? I don't know if that's a different personality being selected for, or whether it's more difficult for prospective cops to feel motivated by saving and protecting when there are fewer and fewer threats in our neighborhoods.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-21388728054017729512013-04-15T15:00:27.115-04:002013-04-15T15:00:27.115-04:00"Do they give out more speeding tickets then ..."Do they give out more speeding tickets then they did in 1960-1990? Maybe this is connected to, as you explained before, some of the elites' scheme to try to take people's licenses away"<br /><br />Great question, I never thought of that.<br /><br />"If they found one underage person(and of course there were always underage kids there), everybody would have to go home... Did it happen during the New Wave? I don't know."<br /><br />There wasn't even a national 21 drinking age until 1984. Most '80s teen movies that include a party scene show carefree underage drinking, and no cops breaking it up, or even patrolling around looking for a pretext to do so. They had more pressing matters.<br /><br />It was always the parents you had to worry about -- would they come home early and spoil the party (a la Weird Science), would they track you down if you snuck out (a la Uncle Buck), would they believe your flimsy story about what you were going to be up to that night and let you go out?<br /><br />I went to a liberal elite school, so the students had little penchant for raising hell or going wild to begin with. I don't remember cops busting up parties. The RA's in our freshman dorm said basically if you aren't caught smoking weed / doing hard drugs, the campus police won't get on your case about a little alcohol.<br /><br />"On each mischief night, it became well-known that cops drove around the neighborhood in unmarked police cars. Did they do this in rising-crime times?"<br /><br />I don't remember that, but I wasn't in the age group that would've been targeted if they had. I think the whole egging the house / toilet-papering the tree thing was an internal matter for the neighborhood. Like, kids will be kids, just gotta clean the eggs off the siding and start tearing down the TP. Not call in the cops.<br /><br />"I know its true that police were more brutal during the New Wave, but they didn't go around disciplining people for chickenshit reasons."<br /><br />Yeah that's another effect of falling crime rates -- the police are still there and need something to do in order to get paid. With less important matters to attend to, they're stuck with making a mountain out of a molehill.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-76678313394893467322013-04-15T14:41:28.142-04:002013-04-15T14:41:28.142-04:00"I don't think shows like The Wire or The..."I don't think shows like The Wire or The Shield really bespeak an attitude towards seeing the police as superhuman. Or movies like Hot Fuzz, Super Troopers, Reno 911 (even if they're dumb movies)."<br /><br />Yeah but no one watches those. The police/crime shows in the top 30 Nielsen ratings are the Law & Order, CSI type. Whereas the top 30 used to include CHiPs, Miami Vice, Magnum P.I., Hill Street Blues, etc. And Dirty Harry, Police Academy, Beverly Hills Cop, Lethal Weapon, etc., were all in the annual top 10 at the box office.<br /><br />"public spaces are less social these days, so the simplest explanation is that the police simply react to the mood in the environment."<br /><br />I think it goes both ways, with them causing it to be less social, not only responding to it. The clutter of insignia, the sunglasses, the facial expressions and physical group segregation -- it's not just people who'd prefer things to be more social but are just hanging back in an asocial environment. They're deliberately more off-putting, and they don't seem very trusting or approachable for the average person.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-19162918316895275212013-04-15T14:32:37.438-04:002013-04-15T14:32:37.438-04:00One element here might be that the people who beco...One element here might be that the people who become a police might be different in the era of high extraversion, high disorder and violence in public places versus today.<br /><br />If the main differences, leaving age structure aside, between the higher crime and falling crime period are due to a fall in less socially opportunistic crime, then cops in falling crime periods would spend more time investigating burglaries and the like, and crimes that don't have that sociable element. The police force wouldn't be looking to hire socially skilled people and socially skilled people wouldn't look to become a police.<br /><br />That might select for different personality types.<br /><br />Plus, cops might be more motivated by money rather than protecting the people - like, being a cop gets seen as being a good job for tough guys who are not so smart or socially skilled, more than a calling that people are driven to do because someone needs to protect those sick animals (insert 80s cop movie dialogue about why copdude "joined the force").Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-48993113925427802152013-04-15T13:49:04.975-04:002013-04-15T13:49:04.975-04:00I have only my own experience with cops. I was de...I have only my own experience with cops. I was deferential towards them. The reason was not that I believed they were ultra-competent. Rather, I had had bad experiences with police, and believed them to be overly strict and unfair. So I had better be deferential, or I might end up in trouble over a trivial pretext.<br /><br />When I was a kid, my friends and I were pulled over to a curb on "mischief night"(night before Halloween, when kids would egg houses or cover them with toilet paper) - and made to wait there - by cops, just because we were roaming around outside(we weren't carrying eggs or toilet paper). On each mischief night, it became well-known that cops drove around the neighborhood in unmarked police cars. Did they do this in rising-crime times? <br /><br />At the college I went to, the town cops would regularly break up parties. I wasn't involved in the social scene there, but I heard about it from a girl I knew. What would happen is that some of the townies would think the kids were being too loud, call the cops, the cops would then go in and ask for I.D. If they found one underage person(and of course there were always underage kids there), everybody would have to go home. This happened every weekend. Now I don't know if it was just that the college town was filled with a bunch of angry hicks, or if it happened in a lot of other colleges too. Did it happen during the New Wave? I don't know.<br /><br />The campus cops regularly handed out speeding tickets, which I got one of. It wasn't a big college, with only one or two main roads you had to drive on before leaving campus, so the cops obviously set up speed traps. Speeding was like 30-40 miles per hour.<br /><br />Not to mention all the other speeding tickets I got on stupid pretexts, even having my license suspended at one point. The cop had radared the car in front of me, which was going 96 miles per hour in a working zone, then wrote down the same speed on both our tickets. My car was a piece of shit and couldn't even go that fast, yet the judge specifically said going over 90 was why he made the decision for a suspension.<br /><br /> Do they give out more speeding tickets then they did in 1960-1990? Maybe this is connected to, as you explained before, some of the elites' scheme to try to take people's licenses away.<br /><br />So I think this is part of the genesis of the deferential behavior. I know its true that police were more brutal during the New Wave, but they didn't go around disciplining people for chickenshit reasons. I have a hard time imagining cops in the '80s responding to complaints of loud noise or patrolling empty parking lots.<br /><br />-Curtis<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-77042863517244695262013-04-15T13:21:01.752-04:002013-04-15T13:21:01.752-04:00Jakes and feds are terms popular among young Black...Jakes and feds are terms popular among young Blacks, but then they're never gonna have a formal attitude to the police.<br /><br />I don't think shows like The Wire or The Shield really bespeak an attitude towards seeing the police as superhuman. Or movies like Hot Fuzz, Super Troopers, Reno 911 (even if they're dumb movies).<br /><br /><i>Several are pictures of the police, and they are always interacting and socializing with the civilians, usually in a pleasant mood, and sometimes lowering their guard to goof around with the civilians</i><br /><br />You kind of tend to say that public spaces are less social these days, so the simplest explanation is that the police simply react to the mood in the environment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com