tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post1872268412112419295..comments2024-03-28T21:56:51.675-04:00Comments on Face to Face: Which narrative media last? And could video games join them?agnostichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-46776791770345668422012-02-10T09:55:10.586-05:002012-02-10T09:55:10.586-05:00I think "The longer the form, the less chance...I think "The longer the form, the less chance of surviving as a work is fundamentally valid" - The Shakespearian plots and their themes survive better as a vehicle of mass consumption than actual whole structure of Shakespearian plays with dialogue and character.<br /><br /><i>But just remember that people said that about penny dreadfuls, comic books, serial films, radio dramas, and the rest. They kept getting more and more popular, until they evaporated.</i><br /><br />OK, but those either plateaued or were eaten by a successor serial form that incorporated pretty much all their strengths while being more engaging. TV is still around. Videogames might be killed off by a successor, but it will probably be an interactive successor. I don't think the retreat from interactivity is really that likely.<br /><br /><i>Somewhere I wrote a post about how video games aren't really art experiences because they require too much conscious interaction from the audience.</i><br /><br />I'm pretty sure I commented the same thing on another thread of yours, but I don't think dancing is less art or less engaging and immersive when you're doing it rather than watching it. I don't think music is less art or less engaging and immersive when you're doing it rather than watching it. I don't even think painting is less art or less engaging and immersive when you're doing it rather than watching it. Do actors in plays get less immersed or more in the play than the audience - would a play be less immersive if everyone in the theatre were acting in it and none were in the audience, and would it stop being art?<br /><br />Of course, I don't even play videogames personally though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-18602675933944885632012-02-10T01:39:37.946-05:002012-02-10T01:39:37.946-05:00I hate to dork out, but I remember the earlier Fin...I hate to dork out, but I remember the earlier Final Fantasys having some pretty sophisticated narratives, such as absentee fathers, war trauma, losing one's family/girlfriend, suicide, teen pregancy, etc. As I remember, in one of them the heros actually fail to save the world from some kind of cataclysmic event, and the second half of the game is spent rebuilding what's left. Pretty obvious the game was made in Japan...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-84071201374333548122012-02-09T17:42:11.096-05:002012-02-09T17:42:11.096-05:00The two counterexamples that immediately come to m...The two counterexamples that immediately come to mind are Portal and Braid. They come in very digestible chunks. I don't know whether they'll still be played years from now, but if any current games will be played later, these will be among them. Also, as others have mentioned, Final Fantasy games get replayed for their narrative. There have been several re-releases that have updated graphics for the originals and are now played on the iPhone/iPad.<br /><br />TV shows in other cultures might not suffer the same fate as shows in the US. In particular, I'm thinking of TV dramas in Asia which have a limited number of episodes, and therefore a thoroughly defined story arc. Each episode ends on a dramatic moment which makes viewers want to start the next episode immediately if they're watching a completed series. If you watch these online as I did, there's no blue balls feeling because the next episode is right at your fingertips. The conclusions are also more satisfying than US shows as the writers knew exactly how it would end before they started filming.pzedhttp://undeadastronauts.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-35904113784027501622012-02-09T04:44:22.328-05:002012-02-09T04:44:22.328-05:00"One problem with long narrative formats is t..."One problem with long narrative formats is that the payout at the end is never worth it."<br /><br />Good point. Longer formats are more for continually or periodically dipping your mind into their atmosphere over a long time, not really to follow a plotline.<br /><br />You don't really need to consume the whole thing. I confess I only got about 500 or so pages into Melmoth the Wanderer. Most of the way, but I didn't feel like it was necessary to finish it.<br /><br />Same with Twin Peaks. You don't have to see all the episodes to enjoy the atmosphere (and it's probably better, since a lot of the 2nd season isn't very good).<br /><br />Those still need some good storytelling, though, and I have yet to see that in video games that are more atmospheric or immersive and less narrative. They're more like simulations, not enough storytelling.<br /><br />I think it's because the atmospheric games try to drive you all over the place geographically. A Gothic type long narrative may occasionally change setting, but it's more settled and even claustrophobic.<br /><br />It allows you to really get familiar -- maybe uncomfortably so -- with that atmosphere. The storytelling is more in pieces, each one to help you get to know a different part of that environment. An over-arching narrative isn't so important.<br /><br />With video games that try to be both atmospheric and narrative, they do it backwards. The narrative is of the over-arching kind, not a series of pieces that gets you to know this and that aspect of the atmosphere. And the atmosphere is so wide-ranging that you never feel bound up in any part of it.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-27129935049248585472012-02-09T04:32:49.785-05:002012-02-09T04:32:49.785-05:00"About TV shows - series like Star Treek, Hit..."About TV shows - series like Star Treek, Hitchkok Presents and Twiligth Zone are been constantly re-aired"<br /><br />Right, but like you said those are more self-contained episodes. There usually is not a narrative thread running through the series.<br /><br />They're like short stories rather than serial fiction.<br /><br />"TV shows, movies, comics, plays, sagas, and the others listed are all passive forms of media. This fly-on-the-wall vantage point is inherently different from the interactive nature of VGs."<br /><br />Somewhere I wrote a post about how video games aren't really art experiences because they require too much conscious interaction from the audience.<br /><br />Interaction like keeping your eyes on the movie screen, walking through the halls of a museum, etc., can be done without self-awareness. So it doesn't prevent you from really getting lost in the experience.<br /><br />The amount of conscious attention needed to make it through video games makes them more interruptible, I think. You have to think, plan, and execute, which keeps the logical and self-aware part of your mind too engaged. It's hard to just let go and get lost.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-73084490433584957112012-02-08T20:01:14.122-05:002012-02-08T20:01:14.122-05:00One problem with long narrative formats is that th...One problem with long narrative formats is that the payout at the end is never worth it. For instance, I can't think of single television series whose final episode satisfied all of the built up suspense over the life of the series. Video games are the same way. I finally got bored with the stories because the plot resolution was always underwhelming for having pissed away dozens of hours of your life.Jokah Macphersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04185675633464395897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-65083747997745196692012-02-08T19:22:13.928-05:002012-02-08T19:22:13.928-05:00Great thoughts. You're the web's best writ...Great thoughts. You're the web's best writer when it comes to popular culture as far as I'm concerned.<br /><br />Do you think the passive/interactive distinction needs to be made when considering the future prospects of video games as narrative media? <br /><br />TV shows, movies, comics, plays, sagas, and the others listed are all passive forms of media. This fly-on-the-wall vantage point is inherently different from the interactive nature of VGs. In single player games (which are shrinking as a proportion of all gaming), there is usually some general narrative frame that exists, especially in Japanese games, but it is somewhat malleable and increasingly contingent upon what the player(s) do(es).<br /><br />Also, the rapidity of technological enhancements in video games relative to the other media listed makes the future a little hazy too, I'd think. Video games have changed enormously in three decades, changes that dwarf anything any of the other media have undergone in such a short period of time, or even through the entirety of their life cycles.Audacious Epigonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07495507254628580077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-30612808473062409492012-02-07T20:35:57.148-05:002012-02-07T20:35:57.148-05:00"To end with, I know some video game addicts ..."To end with, I know some video game addicts are going to geek out in the comments"<br /><br />You've beat me to the punch. That being said, I haven't played a videogame in over 15 years, but I do remember liking games with narratives such as the Final Fantasy series.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-32133216957371710162012-02-07T10:26:45.753-05:002012-02-07T10:26:45.753-05:00If "narrative video games" is what I sup...If "narrative video games" is what I suppose it is (the adventure and action/adventure genres), a problem with them is that most of the point of the game only make sense for the first time you play the game (making difficult the pleasure of playing the game some decades after the first time).<br /><br />About comic books - in the time when people read comic books, some stories where a kind of "classics" that where republished several times (at least, was that with Disney comics). However, can be argued that this kind of stories was simply a subtype of novel.<br /><br />About TV shows - series like Star Treek, Hitchkok Presents and Twiligth Zone are been constantly re-aired is TV stations style "Memory TV" (this kind of stations counts as "sucess over the long term", or only if they were aired at generalist TV?). However, all this series have stand-alone episodes (in HP and TZ, totally independent episodes), then perhaps are bad examples.Miguel Madeirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07382939732567489809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-5589252987488903042012-02-07T08:25:37.324-05:002012-02-07T08:25:37.324-05:00Video games keep on getting shorter. In the PS1/N6...Video games keep on getting shorter. In the PS1/N64 era, video games were about 15-20 hours long, with 15 hours on the shorter side. In the PS2/Xbox era, a 15 hours was a respectable length for a game, with 10 hours being acceptable but too short. Now, a 10 hour game is considered to be a generous helping, with many other single player campaigns being considered little more than tutorials for online play. I rented the Force Unleashed II yesterday, and was glad I only rented it, because I beat it in one sitting.<br /><br />There are a few games which you can play for tens of hours, but they're almost always RPGs, which have always been unusually long compared to action games.<br /><br />I think storylines are becoming less and less respected in gaming. In the PS1 era, Japanese RPGs were considered cream of the crop on consoles. That swiftly changed in the PS2 era, when American RPGs really took off on consoles. Japanese RPGs have linear, thick stories, whereas American RPGs tend to focus more on exploring, performing random quests before getting rid of the ultimate evil in the end.<br /><br />Read #2, for example: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-crucial-lessons-learned-by-watching-kids-play-video-games_p2/<br /><br />Video games, if they're about 15 hours long, can actually have pretty good storylines. The major advantage is that you get to play as the protagonist, so it's easier to identify with him and get caught up with his struggles. Whatever the case, the market for good storytelling continues to go down. I think video game plots peaked from around 1998-2004, and after that have become ever simpler. Once the novelty of cool cutscenes wore off, most gamers concluded that if they wanted a plot, they'd watch a movie. Compare Halo 2, which has a stupid but fleshed out plot, with Halo 3, which just transitions from one battle sequence to the next.mantlenoreply@blogger.com