tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post1623632871992698972..comments2024-03-28T21:56:51.675-04:00Comments on Face to Face: Last great rock band -- Guns N Roses?agnostichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-18043752045228422009-12-18T22:07:56.974-05:002009-12-18T22:07:56.974-05:00You're still not getting my point. Think of it...You're still not getting my point. Think of it visually like a probability curve. Along the horizontal axis, we have the breadth of emotions, and the height of the curve at some point says how much the artist puts into that emotion.<br /><br />I'm not claiming that this curve is of equal height across all emotions. I know there is a lump around the region of emotions that the artist is more disposed toward.<br /><br />What I'm saying is that great artists have a more spread-out curve. Even darker or more serious artists put some effort into lighter moments or comic relief. But you don't really see that in alt rock or grunge. You see it in Leopardi, though. He has a nice light if wistful poem about how filled with joy and gaiety the town center is on Sunday.<br /><br />So for these music genres, it's more like they have a single spike around a dark or brooding region of the emotional axis. It's not just that they have less of the lighter or brighter side as standalone works, or even that they only include it as comic relief within brooding standalone works -- it's just not there.<br /><br />That wasn't true for punk rock (The Ramones being the obvious example there), or even college radio of the '80s (say The Cure, Camper Van Beethoven). It wasn't so unrelentingly in one part of the emotional space.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-85521438542790426312009-12-18T21:26:51.471-05:002009-12-18T21:26:51.471-05:00I'm making a statistical claim, not a black-an...<i>I'm making a statistical claim, not a black-and-white one, about what emotions and situations the best artists try to capture. Obviously there is specialization, but that usually doesn't mean complete specialization. You have to cherry-pick examples of artists whose work is as narrowly exclusive as the ones you mentioned.</i><br /><br />As critic Harold Bloom recently noted, except for Shakespeare <i>no one</i> in the history of Western has done both tragedy and comedy. How's that for a statistical trend.<br /><br />Also, remember, this was your original claim:<br />"Serious artists, regardless of how high-quality their work is, stick with it and try to capture a broad range of emotions and situations."<br /><br />Sophocles, Aeschylus, Hardy, Keats etc. are by anyone's standards serious artists, therefore your claim is falsified. But to go along with the statistical claim, they aren't unique. Let's go on. Wordsworth, Baudelaire, Conrad, Virgil, Petrarch, Milton, Flaubert, Tennyson, Leopardi. Being great at expressing a wide range of moods is the province of a tiny, tiny group of of only the very greatest artists. But the overwhelming preponderance of "serious" artists specialize.Thursdayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13002311410445623799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-45047216733349192062009-12-09T03:57:09.456-05:002009-12-09T03:57:09.456-05:00Try again. You're missing two things:
1) I...Try again. You're missing two things:<br /><br />1) I'm making a statistical claim, not a black-and-white one, about what emotions and situations the best artists try to capture. Obviously there is specialization, but that usually doesn't mean complete specialization. You have to cherry-pick examples of artists whose work is as narrowly exclusive as the ones you mentioned.<br /><br />2) Shakespeare is more remembered than Sophocles, Beethoven more than Chopin, etc., whether among the public or the elite. We value versatility over too much specialization. Same is true for scientists and mathematicians too -- we adore those who worked in many fields, who excelled both at theory and experiment alike, and so on.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-13931745425117002762009-12-09T03:25:08.697-05:002009-12-09T03:25:08.697-05:00"Drive", "Don't Cry", &quo...<i>"Drive", "Don't Cry", "November Rain", "Sweet Child O' Mine", "Everybody Hurts", "End of the Road".</i><br /><br />A rather kitschy, maudlin group of songs. No wonder they're so popular.<br /><br />I'd suggest "Pennyroyal Tea," "Wicked Game," "Crazy," "Boulder to Birmingham," and "Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain" instead.<br /><br />Remember, in the end, the general public's taste doesn't much matter for long term survival. It's one's influence on other artists that really counts.Thursdayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13002311410445623799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-30532194342111184972009-12-09T02:55:46.934-05:002009-12-09T02:55:46.934-05:00Serious artists, regardless of how high-quality th...<i>Serious artists, regardless of how high-quality their work is, stick with it and try to capture a broad range of emotions and situations.</i><br /><br />So, uh, Sophocles and Aeschylus weren't so great because he only did tragedies. And Thomas Hardy wasn't such a great writer because his novels and poems are all gloomy. And Keats whose work was almost entirely melancholy wasn't a great poet. Etc. Etc. Etc. Honestly, leave the art theorizing to people who actually know what they're talking about.Thursdayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13002311410445623799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-49237592652798495092009-11-23T22:21:10.348-05:002009-11-23T22:21:10.348-05:00"I don't think Nirvana was around as long..."I don't think Nirvana was around as long as GNR, so they probably have fewer total videos."<br /><br />Nirvana had a lot more videos, and they're on YouTube, but they just aren't as popular.<br /><br />"Jerry Cantrell once said that Alice in Chains' songs weren't happy because they had better things to do when they were in good moods."<br /><br />That's a wonderfully accurate signal of a poor artist -- that you just indulge in "art" when you're down and then flit on to some other distraction when you're up. That's the emo kid writing bad poetry during the bus ride to school.<br /><br />Serious artists, regardless of how high-quality their work is, stick with it and try to capture a broad range of emotions and situations. Like I said in the post, The Cars (or whoever, just one example) made good songs that were upbeat as well as downers. GNR did too. So did Michael Jackson.<br /><br />Anyone who becomes incredibly popular must be catering to a broad range of tastes, perhaps the same consumer during different moods. I'm not saying that successful artists coldly calculate how to appeal broadly in order to make more money or get more prestige. <br /><br />Rather, those artists who can't help but aim at all sorts of feelings and topics will be selected for, while those who narrowly fixate on their own problems will be set aside as annoying and tiresome.<br /><br />That goes for high art too. Shakespeare is remembered more for his tragedies, but also for his comedies -- he didn't ditch the whole literature gig when he felt chipper. Beethoven wrote the heavy 5th symphony, but also the lighthearted 7th. This pattern generalizes.<br /><br />"Nobody remembers the "let's go to the sock hop" tunes that were their contemporaries back in the day."<br /><br />Actually, nobody remembers blues and country from back then. Take a random sample of people and see how many could recognize more than one blues song (aside from "The thrill is gone"), and more than three old-time country songs. <br /><br />You seem to be equating broad talent with narrowly sappy talent -- that is, anything that isn't uniformly depressing is all the same. Sure, the sock hop groups weren't as great as the Early Beatles or whoever, but that's because they were too upbeat.<br /><br />Those who were mostly fun to listen to, but who tempered that with some pensive or sad songs too, did the best at the time and have survived the best now.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-18769592200625154272009-11-23T17:52:43.610-05:002009-11-23T17:52:43.610-05:00I would wager that music would be magnificently di...I would wager that music would be magnificently different if we only could hear, and not see new acts, via the radio. <br /><br />The emphasis has been put on cultural styles, looks, and sex, since MTV changed the way we recieved music irrevocably. It probably goes back even further than that though. The televised concerts in the 70's were probably the originators of the pro-visual "cool" bias in the determination of what was popular amongst youths. <br /><br /><br /><br />I used to like a song by The Allan Parson's project called, "The Eye in the Sky". It became quite popular for a while, and even ended up being the song the Chicago Bulls used to introduce players in the Jordan-era. If The Allan Parsons project, composed of two regular guys, tried to make a "sexy" video for that song and released it today..............it would never even get airplay and would be dismissed out of hand. There were several old acts composed of ordinary-looking guys and gals with immense vocal or instrumental talent who were not cultural or social provacatuers. These are rather unheard now. These types of people go into different things now, and lesser amounts of them even born anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1976467387655916122009-11-23T13:52:42.700-05:002009-11-23T13:52:42.700-05:00I don't think Nirvana was around as long as GN...I don't think Nirvana was around as long as GNR, so they probably have fewer total videos. I didn't have MTV growing up, so I missed out on all that when I was growing up. When I did first see music videos I decided I wasn't missing much.<br /><br />Bon Jovi? Totally gay. The Cars? Barf.<br /><br />You don't listen to sad music because you're sad. Do you decide to see Doubt rather than Beverly Hills Chihauhau because you're feeling glum? You might write such music if you're sad. Jerry Cantrell once said that Alice in Chains' songs weren't happy because they had better things to do when they were in good moods.<br /><br />Building on my reference to movies, I think it's the case that the works recognized as artistically greatest tend to have an element of tragedy to them. What are Shakespeare's best known plays? Romeo & Juliet, Hamlet, Macbeth. What are the immortal genres of American music that birthed rock'n'roll? Blues & country, both associated with sadness. Nobody remembers the "let's go to the sock hop" tunes that were their contemporaries back in the day.<br /><br />There was a 90s style that harked back to the good times of 70s rock: stoner rock (sludge & doom were somewhat similar but more downbeat). I'd take Clutch over GNR, but I recognize I'm probably in a small minority there. The recent "new wave revival" is an exception to my rule that good music is remembered and imitated years later.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-65471887122874041232009-11-23T10:24:10.009-05:002009-11-23T10:24:10.009-05:00I think there's plenty of good music today, bu...I think there's plenty of good music today, but then again I'm into country. Rock music can die if it wants to, I don't care. I might check out Fall Out Boy, though - I knew they were popular but the most popular rock band ever?<br /><br />How do you feel about crunkcore, btw? It's so intensely despised by indie geeks, metalheads and assorted other nerds that I had to check it out, and I gotta say it's the most shamelessely fun straight music ever.Drogormir Smolkenhttp://www.myspace.com/goatbombnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-6260939733034523442009-11-23T04:36:09.244-05:002009-11-23T04:36:09.244-05:00I concur in general. The 90s marked the end of mus...I concur in general. The 90s marked the end of music worth listening to. There was some good bands like 3 doors down and Matchbox 20 but they were not in the same league as GNR or AC/DC.<br />But I was born in the middle of the 80s so by the time I started listening to music heavy rock was dead.<br />A good slow song from the 90s would be "here without you baby" or "If your gone".<br /><br />Also, AC/DC released a new album last year. Its good chilling music but it lacks any memorable songs. <br />Damned good to hear they are touring again though.<br /><br />And when it comes to GNR I consider welcome to the jungle to be a rather weak song in general. <br /><br />- BreezeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-87725726407356222602009-11-23T00:09:13.643-05:002009-11-23T00:09:13.643-05:00"There are a tonne of fantastic indie bands o..."There are a tonne of fantastic indie bands out there."<br /><br />lol QUEEROagnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-65811335421681924632009-11-22T21:47:45.005-05:002009-11-22T21:47:45.005-05:00lol WRONGO. There are a tonne of fantastic indie ...lol WRONGO. There are a tonne of fantastic indie bands out there. Its hard to find, and often not on the radio...but its out there.Chris Chambershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02805756613180949281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-29188488901060751802009-11-22T20:48:24.624-05:002009-11-22T20:48:24.624-05:00After Reading your blog I would like to say that y...After Reading your blog I would like to say that you are totally right on everything. I believe the music at the moment is terrible no meaning or beauty to it at all .Im a huge guns n roses fan and I'm only 20 I wasn't even around when appetite for destruction came out and I'm turely gutted I didn't have a part in the whole 80s music generation etc MTV now it's just fucking shit anyhow I believe there will be a new band to rise out of the clubs I hope so for the good of the genre guns n roses are turely the last great rock band to grace the earth. I'm going to see them in january and have a look at the new guns n roses I can't bloody wait.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-54283633078108857832009-11-22T20:28:43.153-05:002009-11-22T20:28:43.153-05:00For quantitative evidence, look at this site:
ht...For quantitative evidence, look at this site: <br /><br />http://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time<br /><br />There are lots of great rock albums from the 1990s and 2000s: <br /><br />Ok Computer, Kid A [Radiohead]<br />Loveless [My Bloody Valentine]<br />In the Aeroplane over the Sea [Neutral Milk Hotel]<br />Funeral [Arcade Fire]<br />()[Sigur Ros]<br /><br />While Radiohead is sometimes a little bit on the dopey side, I don't think that Sigur Ros or Arcade Fire could be described as such. <br /><br />The website is probably a good representative sample of the adults who use the internet and have some interest in music.Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327836181389523648noreply@blogger.com