tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post1634438288498404703..comments2024-03-18T17:20:21.775-04:00Comments on Face to Face: Conformity and lack of shameagnostichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-53877209640820496352012-05-02T22:42:45.696-04:002012-05-02T22:42:45.696-04:00I still don't understand the link between lack...I still don't understand the link between lack of conformism and pro-social behavior. Is that always the case? <br /><br />What if you are selfish and non-conformist? Isn't it better to be selfish and conformist about altruism? Wouldn't that spur you to be better than you otherwise would be?asnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-10451463475464967362012-05-02T09:53:35.233-04:002012-05-02T09:53:35.233-04:00How does this fit in with your theories about farm...How does this fit in with your theories about farmers v. herders? <br /><br />I thought the more pastoralist peoples were the more moral peoples? <br /><br />Why are Anglophone countries uniquely pro-social?asnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-21995511389963531522011-05-28T16:04:04.153-04:002011-05-28T16:04:04.153-04:00Hey, Agnostic, as a follow up, what do you think o...Hey, Agnostic, as a follow up, what do you think of the new Michele Gelfand paper that's getting press, on tightness vs looseness in countries:<br /><br />Reported here -<br />http://preview.tinyurl.com/3krrdbh<br /><br />"Their rankings of the 33 countries studied, from “tightest to loosest” were:<br /><br />Pakistan, Malaysia, India, Singapore, South Korea, Norway, Turkey, Japan, China, Portugal, former East Germany, Mexico, United Kingdom, Austria, Italy, former West Germany, Iceland, France, Hong Kong, Poland, Belgium, Spain, United States, Australia, Greece, New Zealand, Venezuela, Brazil, Netherlands, Israel, Hungary, Estonia and Ukraine."<br /><br />Posted here for the obvious connection with the topic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-62813239355201663112011-05-20T22:42:47.727-04:002011-05-20T22:42:47.727-04:00"The 50s generation was morally better than t..."The 50s generation was morally better than their successors. Murder, rape, reckless driving, you yourself showed how it all went up."<br /><br />No, morality can only be inferred from behavior when the people are being put to a test, in some way.<br /><br />For example, if I'm a deliberate hermit, I will never rape, murder, or drive in a way that threatens others. This is just an extreme case of the tendency for people to isolate themselves from others in times of falling violence.<br /><br />Now look at someone who is a social animal, and who still never murders, rapes, etc. This person passes a test that the hermit does not.<br /><br />It's a topic for another post, but look at how shamefully everyone clamored for government bailouts, intervention to boost their industry at the expense of consumers (e.g., slaughtering pigs to drive up the price of pork), during the Great Depression. Same thing during the current recession with bailouts, cash for clunkers, keeping housing prices from falling, etc.<br /><br />There was a bitter recession in the early 1920s, but they took it like a man, got over it, and went on partying during the Roaring Twenties.<br /><br />Same with the early '80s recession, another very bitter double-dip one. Continental Illinois bank was bailed out, and so was Chrysler, but that was far less than what we're doing now or during the Depression. Although Detroit was about to go belly-up back then too, there was no cash for clunkers. People would have found that shameful.<br /><br />So where we observe superficially better behavior among the falling-crime people, we can't infer much from it. And where the pressures facing the two types of people were comparable (e.g., bitter economic correction), the rising-crime people passed and the falling-crime people failed in their response.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-42396744438812751952011-05-20T22:35:30.523-04:002011-05-20T22:35:30.523-04:00"non-conformity erodes hierarchical ties of d..."non-conformity erodes hierarchical ties of dependence"<br /><br />Yes, but the pattern seems to be less one of the elite's losing their sense of noblesse oblige, and more one of the people not wanting to be supported and managed by the elite in the first place.<br /><br />"I believe Inductivist has documented that the relatively conformist and intolerant Conservatives have higher levels of prosociality"<br /><br />We would want to make sure that it was conformity that varied, not the self-applied labels like "conservative" or "liberal." Were they do-what-you're-told conservatives or iconoclastic conservatives? (And likewise for liberals.)agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-63598641642528953552011-05-20T22:32:02.525-04:002011-05-20T22:32:02.525-04:00"Are you sure of that?"
What I mean by ..."Are you sure of that?"<br /><br />What I mean by conformist is how much latitude people are given to defy social conventions -- regardless of what those conventions are.<br /><br />The French have a clear set of expectations for what they're supposed to do during the day, and they like conforming to that. As Ray Sawhill / Michael Blowhard said, a Frenchwoman wakes up looking forward to a good long day of Being French.<br /><br />The policing of language is another clear sign of this. France and Spain both have Royal Academies that say what is or isn't approved French / Spanish, whereas the Anglo speakers just have the descriptive and rarely-deferred-to Oxford English Dictionary.<br /><br />Also the attitude toward assimilation of immigrants. France cracks down hard on how much newcomers can deviate from the existing way of doing things, like the ban on veils. I wouldn't mind some more of this in America, but it's another sign that we demand less conformity.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-64871758063809974072011-05-20T20:21:33.944-04:002011-05-20T20:21:33.944-04:00The 50s generation was morally better than their s...The 50s generation was morally better than their successors. Murder, rape, reckless driving, you yourself showed how it all went up.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-9289596675135294542011-05-20T13:50:13.786-04:002011-05-20T13:50:13.786-04:00Another theory - non-conformity erodes hierarchica...Another theory - non-conformity erodes hierarchical ties of dependence that makes elites feel like they owe the common man a damn (why would elites do anything for people who aren't going to "pay" you in social status and respect - screw 'em and offshore their jobs!), fostering mutual aid organisations amongst the average person - which is what we're calling "pro-sociality".<br /><br />Looked at from another perspective, it might be interesting to drill down to an intra-society level - I believe Inductivist has documented that the relatively conformist and intolerant Conservatives have higher levels of prosociality (in terms of charitable contributions) than the tolerant Liberals. How would we explain that story?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-88782019276910347012011-05-20T06:35:35.889-04:002011-05-20T06:35:35.889-04:00"The French pride themselves on how conformis..."The French pride themselves on how conformist they are. When everyone knows their place and behaves as they're expected to, the machine operates smoothly."<br /><br />Are you sure of that? I don't know any Frenchman, however by the French movies/books that I had seen/read I had the impression that French self-image (the way they seem themselves) was more something like "we are a colourful, artistic, hedonistic, live-and-let-live people, unlike Germans and that repressed puritans, the Americans, who could be very efficient workers but don't have soul and originality".<br /><br />not that I am not saying that French (or Germans, or Americans) are that way - I am saying that French see themselves as being that way.Miguel Madeirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07382939732567489809noreply@blogger.com