tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post116655686743555046..comments2024-03-27T23:28:20.274-04:00Comments on Face to Face: Kids these days: Dancing and sexagnostichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-4325200792305269722008-04-12T03:53:00.000-04:002008-04-12T03:53:00.000-04:00I know this is a really old post, but the fact is ...I know this is a really old post, but the fact is on that graph, in ALL of the western countries shown - in the US and Europe, the percentage of teenage girls who have had sex increased. In all of them... I don't know how you didn't see this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1167845924798706912007-01-03T12:38:00.000-05:002007-01-03T12:38:00.000-05:00Quit comparing apples to oranges.I didn't compare ...<I>Quit comparing apples to oranges.</I><BR/><BR/>I didn't compare the West to non-West -- the data are there, though I didn't focus on this contrast at all, but rather on the trend over time in the West whereby teenagers are not having sex earlier.<BR/><BR/>So don't put words in my mouth.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1167701498769844292007-01-01T20:31:00.000-05:002007-01-01T20:31:00.000-05:00The problem here is that a lot of the early interc...The problem here is that a lot of the early intercourse in the Third World is due to early marriage. While early marriage has its own problems, they are not necessarily the same as those associated with early premarital sex. We in the West are concerned mainly with the latter and the latter is what is getting critics of sexually provocative dancing up in arms.<BR/><BR/>Quit comparing apples to oranges.<BR/><BR/>An AlbertanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1167252910656467852006-12-27T15:55:00.000-05:002006-12-27T15:55:00.000-05:00spungen said:I suspect it's always been that way.S...spungen said:<BR/><I>I suspect it's always been that way.</I><BR/><BR/>Sure, but my point is that freak dancing makes it worse. In different dance environments, like ballroom/latin and salsa, it doesn't require so much contact, so it's easier to initiate, and girls will be more comfortable doing it with guys they aren't initially attracted to. You can get dances without being at the top of the social ladder.<BR/><BR/><I>Those kind of guys just don't dance.</I><BR/><BR/>But some of them would dance for the slow dances (about 3-5 an evening). They clearly wanted to dance. They just couldn't freak with girls. <BR/><BR/><I>At least freak-dancing, unlike much of the stuff we had to do in the 80s, doesn't require any particular steps or coordination, so most guys could do it if so inclined.</I><BR/><BR/>Actually, that's part of the problem. Strangely, dances that require skill are actually better environments for lower status men, because those men can make up in skill what they lack in status.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1167168543146133152006-12-26T16:29:00.000-05:002006-12-26T16:29:00.000-05:00In the end, if you aren't an alpha male, you spend...<I>In the end, if you aren't an alpha male, you spend most of the time sitting by the wall, or talking with other low status males.</I><BR/><BR/>Dude, it was the same way 15 years ago in the pre-freak era. I suspect it's always been that way. Those kind of guys just don't dance. At least freak-dancing, unlike much of the stuff we had to do in the 80s, doesn't require any particular steps or coordination, so most guys could do it if so inclined.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1166997719823710862006-12-24T17:01:00.000-05:002006-12-24T17:01:00.000-05:00I'm 21, and freak dancing has been in style at my ...I'm 21, and freak dancing has been in style at my high school and at college parties, so perhaps I should comment. I have a minor problem with freak-dancing, but it hasn't been mentioned so far:<BR/><BR/>Freak-dancing makes dances the terrain of the alpha males (I mean, even more than normal). This is how it was at my high school.<BR/><BR/>Girls only want to freak with alpha males. If freaking is the only mode of dancing at a dance (with maybe an occasional slow dance thrown in), then the dance floor looks like this the whole night:<BR/><BR/>1. Extraverted and sensation-seeking girls freaking with the alpha males.<BR/>2. Other girls dancing in groups, but NOT with guys. These are the girls who aren't into alpha males, or who are more sexually inhibited. <BR/>3. All non-alpha male guys either dancing in groups of girls (but not *with* girls), or sitting by the walls or outside.<BR/><BR/>Here's the problem: grinding is too sexual for the more introverted, less sensation-seeking girls to engage in (they are following a long-term mating strategy). Freak-dancing is short-term mating strategy behavior. This means that guys who don't come off as short-term mates (i.e. alpha males), don't get any play. There are girls who might be interested in those guys, but the girls will be too sexually inhibited to want to freak, and definitely not with a guy who looks like a long-term mate rather than short-term.<BR/><BR/>Girls who don't want to freak can dance in their groups and with each other, and have at least some fun. But the guys that no girls want to freak with (i.e. all non-alpha males) won't have so much fun dancing in groups with girls (they will be watching the hot girls freaking with alpha males over their shoulders), and they can't dance with each other like girls can.<BR/><BR/>In the end, if you aren't an alpha male, you spend most of the time sitting by the wall, or talking with other low status males. On an individual level, the solution is to become an alpha male, if you can. I have gotten to point where at least a subset of moderately attractive women register me as an alpha male. When you aren't an alpha male, freaking with girls is next to impossible. When you instead hit the girl's "potential short-term mate" buttons, then grinding doesn't take much work at all. <BR/><BR/>However, while I have improved my personal situation, the system is still the same, and it really sucks for low status and non-sensation-seeking males. Of course, mating tends to suck for low-status males. It's just that with freak-dancing, this suckitude is amplified. With other styles of dancing, like ballroom and latin dance, low status males can at least get on the playing field (and what counts as "status" is more favorable to them), because a girl doesn't have to be initially attracted to them to want to dance, and more sexually-inhibited girls will accept that kind of dance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1166689799411910632006-12-21T03:29:00.000-05:002006-12-21T03:29:00.000-05:00To clarify, I know you weren't being hysterical. I...To clarify, I know you weren't being hysterical. I'm referring to the general tone in the NYT article and assorted comments at HS. "What's the world coming to?" "Civilization is on its deathbed," and so on. True, but I think dancing styles have little to do w/ it. No one reads, relationships are mostly short-term / high divorce rate, dysgenic trend for IQ, etc. -- those are problems worth worrying about.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1166689335300673002006-12-21T03:22:00.000-05:002006-12-21T03:22:00.000-05:00Obviously getting to third base heightens rather t...<I>Obviously getting to third base heightens rather than decreases your desire to make it home.</I><BR/><BR/>Right, heightens <B>my</B> desire to do so, since I'm a guy. That's why I qualified this by saying only girls need "be satiated by dancing, music, gabbing, and kissing, since their desires are the limiting factor on how much sex will take place." Given how little of an interest teenage girls have in a quick escalation toward intercourse (in general, they feel pressured into it by the boy), and how little they crave sex in general, I think the argument is fine.<BR/><BR/>I'll grant that girl-on-girl at parties, sporting tattoos on the lower back, etc., are more common now. I was just talking about sexual intercourse: apparently, little or no change. I balk at classifying tramp stamps and faux lesbianism as a different kind of raciness compared to mini-skirts and oral sex at the drive-in, normed to the milieu of the times. Perhaps a bit higher in degree. But maybe I don't know enough about the '50s, so I'm willing to change on the kinkiness issue. Not on the sex thing, though.<BR/><BR/><I>Kids are going to be more likely to have sex if you let them freak each other on the dance floor.</I><BR/><BR/>Maybe, but not obviously, and increasingly provocative dance styles over the past 30 years apparently haven't impacted the teen sex rate much. IQ, presence of both parents, impulsive vs restrained disposition, etc. -- these will affect teen sex, but how racy you're allowed to be at the school dance doesn't appear to. <BR/><BR/>Again, even if freak dancing *did* increase risk of sex, do people know that by prohibiting freak dancing, the desire to freak dance wouldn't simply manifest itself in a substitute activity that had a similar increase in risk of sex?<BR/><BR/>I agree that you might prohibit your daughter from having sex, just that it be phrased in honest terms: I want to protect my property from losing value, to check the base instincts of the human animal, etc. But if you're going to prohibit her from doing something else, on the assumption that it increases risk of sex, there should be good evidence of this risk increase. Or, if not, say "I'm not prohibiting you from dancing that way b/c I think it'll lead to sex -- it doesn't -- but instead for reasons 1, 2, 3..."<BR/><BR/>In general, I'd just like for discussion of sexual behavior among teenagers to be less hysterical and fact-free.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1166684376843289362006-12-21T01:59:00.000-05:002006-12-21T01:59:00.000-05:00Should there be no convincing evidence that X lead...<I> Should there be no convincing evidence that X leads to Y, or that cracking down on X would lead to a decrease in Y, then the proponent must admit that there is "no good reason" for his stance, except that "You'll do as I say." </I><BR/><BR/>But there are certain experiments whose outcome one can forecast before one does them. Kids are going to be more likely to have sex if you let them freak each other on the dance floor. This is the whole point for the kids, but not the parents. Their incentive structures are completely different. As the father of a teenage daughter (or of a teenage son, albeit to a lesser extent), you are on the hook for the emotional/financial aftermath. But for the teenager, you just want to hook up now. <BR/><BR/>Now that I'm no longer a teenager, my sympathies are with those who'll end up paying the bill. It would suck to have a kid in high school -- it ruins your whole life. Trusting teenagers to make good judgements on this issue is not very wise. Of course, if I were a teenager, I would do everything in my power to evade the strictures imposed on me by authority. That doesn't mean there isn't a good reason behind those strictures, or that every experiment has to be conducted before we can predict the outcome. <BR/><BR/>This whole thing reminds me of the (in retrospect ludicrous) debate over whether swinging did or did not contribute to the dissolution of marriages and increased envy: <BR/><BR/>http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002691.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1166684064867180282006-12-21T01:54:00.000-05:002006-12-21T01:54:00.000-05:00The only thing that has changed is the technology:...<I> The only thing that has changed is the technology: it is just easier to detect who is and isn't an exhibitionist in the internet age. </I><BR/><BR/>Highly doubt this. Any kind of poll of sexual attitudes is going to show greater openness of modern girls to blowjobs, porn, faux lesbianism, etc. relative to even 20 years ago. <BR/><BR/>This is awesome, of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-1166683950813591902006-12-21T01:52:00.000-05:002006-12-21T01:52:00.000-05:00the onus is on the proponents of cracking down on ...<I> the onus is on the proponents of cracking down on "freak dancing" to demonstrate that such dancing increases the risk of having sex among teenagers. Predictably, no evidence is presented to this effect, and there is good a priori reason to believe that suggestive dancing doesn't increase the risk of having sex -- which is that sexually suggestive dancing, combined with loud music, gabbing excitedly with one's friends, and perhaps some french kissing, <B>may be enough to satiate teenagers' desire</B> for some degree of debauchery, </I><BR/><BR/>Weak argument, agnostic. Obviously getting to third base heightens rather than decreases your desire to make it home. <BR/><BR/>--gcAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com