tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post1139114658757684396..comments2024-03-28T18:47:26.619-04:00Comments on Face to Face: "Organizing" as crypto-hoarding, and emotional dysfunctionagnostichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-21021838081233435562013-07-22T18:22:21.600-04:002013-07-22T18:22:21.600-04:00"Well, we say autistic, sperg, retarded, ADD,..."Well, we say autistic, sperg, retarded, ADD, psycho, schizo, spastic, gay, and so on. Psychiatrists may have their own definition of what those things are, but we all know what they mean in common usage, and that our definition and the shrinks' definition are in the same semantic cluster..."<br /><br />I think that there is an exception to the "same semantic cluster" rule - "schizo"; most people use words like "schizo", "schizophrenic", "schizoid", etc, with the meaning of dual personality, having contradictory opinions, etc, when the psychiatric definitions have to do with a mix of social isolation and loss of contact with reality.<br /><br />About the "OCD" thing, I suspect that the common meaning of the expression has more to do with OC<b>P</b>D ("Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder", characterized by an obsession with rules, regulations, systems, order, etc) than with OCD ("Obsessive Compulsive Disorder", characterized by obsessive thoughts and anxiety and the need to perform rituals to get free from the anxiety). But if there is some confusion between the two, the guilt is in the psychiatrists, who labeled two distinct diseases with almost identical names (and they should know that the "personality" in "obsessive compulsive personality disorder" will be likely to "fall" in colloquial use)Miguel Madeirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07382939732567489809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-28774107207295438342013-07-21T00:30:36.266-04:002013-07-21T00:30:36.266-04:00"the detailed rules of beer pong, helicopter ..."the detailed rules of beer pong, helicopter parenting, food instagrams, and sarcastic status updates on Facebook are not the same as hours of checking routines (physical or mental) that interfere with work, happiness, sleep, and more, for example."<br /><br />I disagree. Those examples are part of a larger and broader pattern of OCD behavior in those people's lives. I've written elsewhere about what college kids are like in their "leisure" time these days --<br /><br />Constantly checking Facebook to see if there are any new status updates since 5 minutes ago, if anyone has liked or commented on one of their own updates within the past 5 minutes, or if there are any new pictures to look at / like / comment on, or any comments / likes on their own pictures, etc.<br /><br />Doing the same constant checking behaviors with texting.<br /><br />Video games that are mostly "grinding" of one sort or another.<br /><br />Always getting up to parade around the computer lab or study area in order to get a few quick hits of ego inflation from anybody who looks at you.<br /><br />"Anyway I know OCD can be a cute adjective and people know what you mean, but I think you're logically minded enough and you've discussed it enough that you might respect the differences between the true disorder and just annoying social trends."<br /><br />Well, we say autistic, sperg, retarded, ADD, psycho, schizo, spastic, gay, and so on. Psychiatrists may have their own definition of what those things are, but we all know what they mean in common usage, and that our definition and the shrinks' definition are in the same semantic cluster... so why split hairs?agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-78315401102862967062013-07-20T22:55:40.493-04:002013-07-20T22:55:40.493-04:00So, I usually enjoy the high level speculation on ...So, I usually enjoy the high level speculation on this blog and connecting of cultural dots, but this time you're getting off track. I legitimately have OCD with therapy and SSRIs to boot, and lemme tell you, it sucks. I'm not playing the victim card, I just want to point out a few things if you must insist on pursuing this topic further<br /><br />Say what you will about psychology as a field, but there is a specific set of criteria that define OCD, and you're using the term as a loose adjective to describe behavior that superficially fits the bill. of course cultural changes can affect individual behavior and brain chemistry, but there is a big difference between the OCD trap -- something's feels not quite right...sort of involuntarily attributing it to something in the environment...and then compulsively trying to change the environment for random reinforcement-- and what seems to be just symptoms of increasing boredom, increasing standards of living, diversity without commaraderie, self awareness, social media, and probably some selection and confirmation bias. the detailed rules of beer pong, helicopter parenting, food instagrams, and sarcastic status updates on Facebook are not the same as hours of checking routines (physical or mental) that interfere with work, happiness, sleep, and more, for example. This is not to say a continuum does not exist, but that OCD refers to something on the extreme end.<br /><br />Anyway I know OCD can be a cute adjective and people know what you mean, but I think you're logically minded enough and you've discussed it enough that you might respect the differences between the true disorder and just annoying social trends.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-51628655518537518732013-07-19T23:53:28.334-04:002013-07-19T23:53:28.334-04:00"I'd say the emotional devastation of his..."I'd say the emotional devastation of his death actually changed the course of her hoarding tendencies."<br /><br />The big problems in life -- death, sex, crime -- have a way of focusing your mind on what's really important. A death in the family can be like a shot in the arm of something that truly matters, so your mind has a point of reference.<br /><br />Compared to such a major event, acquiring more things that you derive no usefulness or enjoyment from -- well, that's a pretty easy question to answer with your new perspective.<br /><br />Widespread OCD and related behaviors are a sign of how insulated we've become from the major issues in life. It's like an auto-immune disease -- we have this system set up for coping with problems, but it gets less and less frequent use for the Real Problems. So it turns on something trivial and pointless like acquiring and organizing crud (ahem, crud that was 80% off!).agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-92213704142088997902013-07-19T23:43:03.781-04:002013-07-19T23:43:03.781-04:00"Does organizing cause any problems?"
S..."Does organizing cause any problems?"<br /><br />Sure, those containers keep multiplying themselves.<br /><br />And it's not so much about what it leads to, but what it's a symptom of -- the broken emotional system that assigns weights to each item, and comes up with an algorithm for keeping or getting rid of each item based on its weighting.<br /><br />"If they had no emotional response, I'd think others could just throw stuff away and the hoarder wouldn't care. But my impression is that hoarders are upset if that happens."<br /><br />I didn't say they had no emotional response, but that they don't have any special attachment to their things -- no utilitarian value, and no sentimental value.<br /><br />When you try to take truly valued things away, the normal response is disgust (desecrating something sacred by tossing it out) or sadness (something cherished slipping out of your hands).<br /><br />The anger of the organizer / hoarder is more like irritation, feeling violated, their privacy invaded, their character attacked, being put on the spot and embarrassed, etc.<br /><br />They're not angry because they derive any value from their things, but because your actions to help them out feel like a disrespectful and paternalistic slap in their face.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-12313167412887627382013-07-19T23:37:17.209-04:002013-07-19T23:37:17.209-04:00"I guess I mean more how do you sharpen your ..."I guess I mean more how do you sharpen your emotions so that you know the right decision to make."<br /><br />It's a matter of getting more experience, not really sharpening your emotions. Intuition guides you after you've had lots of experience, and you've developed an unconscious feel for the situation.<br /><br />If you get into similar situations, it'll come more as a hunch.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-55809348314515786242013-07-19T21:41:47.311-04:002013-07-19T21:41:47.311-04:00I guess I mean more how do you sharpen your emotio...I guess I mean more how do you sharpen your emotions so that you know the right decision to make.<br /><br />-CurtisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-76366662435411283582013-07-19T21:24:32.821-04:002013-07-19T21:24:32.821-04:00I know an extreme hoarder, the brother of my best ...I know an extreme hoarder, the brother of my best friend. Their mother was a hoarder too although she was somewhat kept in check by her husband. After he died, however, she grew worse. She started buying single wide mobile homes at auction in which she stored the junk of her son.<br /><br />The brother has suffered from extreme rages since he was a child and does so to this day at the age of 55 so to say he is w/out emotion is not at all correct. <br /><br />My best friend, his older sister, admitted to me long ago that she has had to fight the tendency most of her life. She loves to buy things on sale, then store them. As you describe, she is the person who has tried to organize her possessions to an excessive degree: compartments/drawers/bins/added cabinets/compartmentalized attic with nice step-down ladders, etc. <br /><br />She especially liked labeling things with her label maker....took an excessive delight in so doing which I noticed long before I found out about the hoarding in her family.<br /><br />When she lost her other brother to drugs it seems her proclivity was curbed. She was very close to this youngest brother, helped raise him, and from what I have observed, I'd say the emotional devastation of his death actually changed the course of her hoarding tendencies. She still buys more than other people, but she also throws things away. She has explained to me that she does this consciously because she knows she "has the tendency" and has seen what it has done to her brother and to a lesser extent, her mother. She no longer seems bent on organization either. I figure age has something to do with it. It takes energy to organize.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-25205283586387412092013-07-19T20:35:26.363-04:002013-07-19T20:35:26.363-04:00Does organizing cause any problems? I haven't ...Does organizing cause any problems? I haven't seen any shows about it. I also would have assumed organizers were proud of their organization.<br /><br />If they had no emotional response, I'd think others could just throw stuff away and the hoarder wouldn't care. But my impression is that hoarders are upset if that happens.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-37830678997172623522013-07-19T19:15:43.853-04:002013-07-19T19:15:43.853-04:00What about kids coming out of an overcontrolled si...What about kids coming out of an overcontrolled situation? You're always being told what to do, what to think, what to wear- finally you are out on your own at what, 25 (real job after four years college), 30 (grad school), whiskey tango foxtrot? You pile stuff up, and ten years go by, and you're fifty and you're that guy with all the stuff in his house, organized or not...biffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-89858055175397138962013-07-19T19:09:58.303-04:002013-07-19T19:09:58.303-04:00I didn't know that people with OCD or hoarders...I didn't know that people with OCD or hoarders are described as unemotional per se. Is that a common part of their diagnoses? Their negative emotionality (like sadness, anger, fear) particularly seems really high.<br /><br />The brain is also integrated, so skeptical about isolating emotional centres as a cause of decision dysfunction. And I think brain damage purely to the limbic system, deep within the brain is rare.<br /><br />I agree and disagree about the role of emotions in decision making. Personally I do think emotions are not necessarily useful in decision making, per se, once the brain has evolved reason and experience, but that emotions more both serve the function of helping affiliation through empathy (if no one had any feelings, then they could never have "in feeling" with one another) and (particularly in the case of positive emotions, but also the sublime and tragic, really any kind of balanced emotionality) are also the sweetness in the "cognitive cheesecake" (to use a Pinkerism) that we firstly have the right to enjoy even if there isn't actually any functionally useful role, but which also incentivizes us to action.<br /><br />I see being emotional as like being drunk with friends. It generally doesn't help you make better decisions, but it strengths your social bonds and often gives you energy for your life. It doesn't help you make a better choice between the A, B, C and D, but it strengthens the bonds with your community and allies and forces a person to be achievement and motivates reasoning and action in a generalised kind of sense.<br /><br />I'm not sure if this is the same as what you are saying or quite different.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-13181700487725617552013-07-19T13:54:17.117-04:002013-07-19T13:54:17.117-04:00It's not so much about a conscious awareness o...It's not so much about a conscious awareness of your emotional response... just the intuitive impulse itself.<br /><br />Like how lots of these organizers set rules for how many showers to take, set a schedule for how often to organize their clutter, etc.<br /><br />You don't need to do that if you can intuitively tell whether or not the space is messy enough that you need to do something about it. Or if you've done something that requires you to wash your hands or take a shower.<br /><br />Animals get by just fine on intuition alone. Human reason allows us to do fancier stuff, but we don't need it just to take care of basic everyday things that animals can manage intuitively.agnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967177967469961883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19346366.post-22612144531704562112013-07-19T10:26:08.103-04:002013-07-19T10:26:08.103-04:00" rather than make decisions and act based on..." rather than make decisions and act based on intuition"<br /><br />yeah, but how do you do that all the time? emotions can be hard to feel.<br /><br />-CurtisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com